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Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 8:55 am
by rand
In a head to head series with modern rules, which team would win?
Two GOATs has any two players in NBA history at their peak plus three random championship quality roleplayers at their peak like Fisher, KCP, Danny Green, Bruce Bowen, Tayshaun Prince, Boris Diaw, Kevon Looney, etc (no former All-Stars or All-NBAers). You get to pick the position (G, F, or C) the roleplayer comes from but not choose the exact roleplayer from that position.
The other team has five random post-merger players who were All-NBA at least one season in the condition of that season. If they were All-NBA more than once, a random season among their All-NBA seasons is used to set their condition. Seasons in which the All-NBAer won MVP or Finals MVP are disqualified. Two guards, two forwards, and one center will be chosen.
Post-merger was chosen to keep everything in the 3pt era. The full list of players who were All-NBA at least once since the merger can be found below.
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 11:30 am
by Colbinii
I got
John Stockton
Alvin Robertson
Kawhi Leonard
Dan Roundfield
Pau Gasol
I take this team easily over 2 GOATs
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 12:28 pm
by Dutchball97
Isn't there a bit too much variance on the All-NBA list. Like you could get unlucky get a team like Isaiah Thomas, Jim Paxson, Jaylen Brown, Truck Robinson and DeAndre Jordan. That team wouldn't be able to do much against MJ/LeBron + 3 elite roleplayers but you could also field a full team of top 10 players if you're really lucky.
Looking at the average outcomes though I do think most 5 All-NBA combinations are going to be better than 2 GOATs + roleplayers.
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 1:01 pm
by colts18
Basically the Shaq+Kobe Lakers vs. the 2004 Pistons
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 2:59 pm
by rk2023
colts18 wrote:Basically the Shaq+Kobe Lakers vs. the 2004 Pistons
You mean Kobe and the 04 Pistons vs Shaq’s Lakers?
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 3:20 pm
by Statlanta
Jamal Murray
Eddie Jones
Shane Battier
Tim Duncan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
I'd take two GOATs
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:20 pm
by Owly
Statlanta wrote:Jamal Murray
Eddie Jones
Shane Battier
Tim Duncan
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
I'd take two GOATs
Not sure about putting a guy who made a third team all NBA plus 3 all-star games (Jones) in the role player bucket. Suspect the Murray pick is based on the belief playoff Murray is "real", sustainable. And if it is then he probably collars some above "role player level" accolades too.
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 4:49 pm
by Owly
rand wrote:In a head to head series with modern rules, which team would win?
Two GOATs has any pair of players in NBA history at their peak plus three random quality roleplayers at their peak like Fisher, KCP, Danny Green, Bruce Bowen, Boris Diaw, Kevon Looney, etc. You get to pick the position the (G, F, or C) the roleplayer comes from but not choose the exact roleplayer from that position.
The other team has five random post-merger players who were All-NBA at least one season in the condition of that season. If they were All-NBA more than once, a random season among their All-NBA seasons is used to set their condition. Two guards, two forwards, and one center will be chosen.
Post-merger was chosen to keep everything in the 3pt era. The full list of players who were All-NBA at least once since the merger can be found below.
Too much unknown I think
what are benches like?
If you get Petrovic, Sprewell, Mashburn, Sampson, Baker, Jefferson. L Robinson, Ju Howard type guys then you'd feel hard done by.
Alternately, maybe the all NBA team gets multiple "GOAT-y" players.
Where one draws the start and end line on quality role players will be a big issue.
In a probabilistic sense I suppose you'd want to bucket the All-NBA and see how many were that good because
if the pool is players not seasons and you're as likely to get Al Jefferson as Kareem then I suppose the All-NBA pool is weaker than one might implicitly think of it by its name.
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 5:12 pm
by JLei
I just did a random and got
Ben Wallace
Anthony Davis
Kevin Durant
Paul Pierce
Pete Maravich
This team would kill 2 GOATs + Role Players IMO.
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Thu Oct 19, 2023 6:38 pm
by rand
Owly wrote:rand wrote:In a head to head series with modern rules, which team would win?
Two GOATs has any pair of players in NBA history at their peak plus three random quality roleplayers at their peak like Fisher, KCP, Danny Green, Bruce Bowen, Boris Diaw, Kevon Looney, etc. You get to pick the position the (G, F, or C) the roleplayer comes from but not choose the exact roleplayer from that position.
The other team has five random post-merger players who were All-NBA at least one season in the condition of that season. If they were All-NBA more than once, a random season among their All-NBA seasons is used to set their condition. Two guards, two forwards, and one center will be chosen.
Post-merger was chosen to keep everything in the 3pt era. The full list of players who were All-NBA at least once since the merger can be found below.
Too much unknown I think
what are benches like?
If you get Petrovic, Sprewell, Mashburn, Sampson, Baker, Jefferson. L Robinson, Ju Howard type guys then you'd feel hard done by.
Alternately, maybe the all NBA team gets multiple "GOAT-y" players.
Where one draws the start and end line on quality role players will be a big issue.
In a probabilistic sense I suppose you'd want to bucket the All-NBA and see how many were that good because
if the pool is players not seasons and you're as likely to get Al Jefferson as Kareem then I suppose the All-NBA pool is weaker than one might implicitly think of it by its name.
Good call outs.
No benches; 36 minute games.
The All-NBA pool is indeed players, not seasons. Once the player is randomly selected, their All-NBA season is randomly selected. If you get Shaq it might be 1994 Shaq, 2000 Shaq, 2009 Shaq, etc.
I agree that the roleplayers could be problematic but for guidelines no player can be selected that ever made an All-Star or All-NBA team or had a season that was even borderline for either of the above like 2023 Jamal Murray. Shy away from roleplayers with All-Star level talent like Lamar Odom. Use your best judgment.
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 5:25 am
by trelos6
My random was
Jojo White
David Thompson
Peja Stojakovic
Jermaine O Neal
Rudy Gobert
Gimme the 2 GOAT’s
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Fri Oct 20, 2023 4:59 pm
by Saints14
With championship level role players I take the GOATs easily. At the highest levels a guy like Danny Green is more valuable than most lesser all stars.
Curry
Danny Green
LeBron
Shane Battier
Brook Lopez
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2023 12:24 am
by dygaction
JLei wrote:I just did a random and got
Ben Wallace
Anthony Davis
Kevin Durant
Paul Pierce
Pete Maravich
This team would kill 2 GOATs + Role Players IMO.
Kevin Durant is close to a GOAT than an ordinary all-nba.
Might add a restriction that the all-nbas should be 2nd or 3rd team only.
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2023 3:24 am
by henshao
why don't we nail down what a GOATs team looks like, a possible outline would be Lebron + Jordan "carrying" say...Sheed or Camby (Gilmore if we're cheeky), Jason Terry, and someone who can fill holes in the lineup like say Rip or Iguodala
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2023 4:26 am
by Kingdibs19
Double
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2023 4:26 am
by Kingdibs19
Camby or Tyson Chandler
Lebron
Danny Green or Igoudala
MJ
Fisher
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Sat Oct 21, 2023 11:10 am
by Owly
henshao wrote:why don't we nail down what a GOATs team looks like, a possible outline would be Lebron + Jordan "carrying" say...Sheed or Camby (Gilmore if we're cheeky), Jason Terry, and someone who can fill holes in the lineup like say Rip or Iguodala
Op has, admittedly not in the initial post done this, to some extent (i.e. in terms of criteria rather than a specific team).
I agree that the roleplayers could be problematic but for guidelines no player can be selected that ever made an All-Star or All-NBA team or had a season that was even borderline for either of the above like 2023 Jamal Murray. Shy away from roleplayers with All-Star level talent like Lamar Odom. Use your best judgment.
My first glance thought is that
none of your role player choices would be eligible, though there isn't an absolute hard line so people can disagree.
Not going to look these up so errors are possible ...
Camby otoh is a never all-star but is among the best "never all-stars" and has a season that would be borderline.
Wallace has accolades
Terry is never all-star but among the top handful of guards not to have been.
Gilmore has accolades (including an MVP in the ABA, but all-stars too in the NBA)
Think the wings have accolades too.
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Sun Oct 22, 2023 8:06 am
by henshao
Owly wrote:henshao wrote:why don't we nail down what a GOATs team looks like, a possible outline would be Lebron + Jordan "carrying" say...Sheed or Camby (Gilmore if we're cheeky), Jason Terry, and someone who can fill holes in the lineup like say Rip or Iguodala
Op has, admittedly not in the initial post done this, to some extent (i.e. in terms of criteria rather than a specific team).
I agree that the roleplayers could be problematic but for guidelines no player can be selected that ever made an All-Star or All-NBA team or had a season that was even borderline for either of the above like 2023 Jamal Murray. Shy away from roleplayers with All-Star level talent like Lamar Odom. Use your best judgment.
My first glance thought is that
none of your role player choices would be eligible, though there isn't an absolute hard line so people can disagree.
Not going to look these up so errors are possible ...
Camby otoh is a never all-star but is among the best "never all-stars" and has a season that would be borderline.
Wallace has accolades
Terry is never all-star but among the top handful of guards not to have been.
Gilmore has accolades (including an MVP in the ABA, but all-stars too in the NBA)
Think the wings have accolades too.
well it's a lot easier to say what the team doesn't look like, than what it does
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2023 12:05 am
by acheck13
Role redundancy/ duplication comes into play here, especially given the scoring bias of media voting. Give me a synergistic GOAT caliber duo— Lebron and Curry, for example, with three complementary players, over five very talented players who are used to having the ball in their hands. Major diminishing returns, and are they really better at the ancillary stuff than the guys who make their money on that? Take the “Olympic Melo” shtick— how valuable is Carmelo shooting spot up threes on a team where his medium efficiency floor raiser post-ups or isos aren’t ever going to be really needed. Much more than, say, a guy who’s going to shoot when he should without hesitation and also is an accomplished defender who’s used to playing serious NBA defense like Danny Green? Add in the fact that the ball-primacy stuff is always going to be better in the hands of a GOAT level creator, and I just don’t see your average 5 man all nba team construct winning.
Re: Two GOATs vs five random All-NBAers?
Posted: Mon Oct 23, 2023 2:29 pm
by giordunk
If we're doing two GOATs I think I'd go something like
LeBron James
Danny Green
Shane Battier
???
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Putting LeBron at point should usually give me a mismatch somewhere. Danny Green and Shane Battier are about as good as it gets for role player wings. I think it really depends on where you can draw the line on the 4 position. If I can get an Orlando Rashard Lewis I feel pretty confident about my chances because he's a nasty 3rd option on this team. But you give me like a Robert Horry or something then I'm not so confident. Maybe any high volume shooter stretch 4, if we get lucky we can hide him on someone who is an offensive dud like a Ben Wallace or something.
My random got
Kemba Walker
Kobe Bryant
Latrell Sprewell
Tom Chambers
Dwight Howard
I won't be easy but I think my two GOATs team has a pretty good chance against this team.
In the long run though I do think the 5 random All-NBAers should win over the two goats.