Which of these is the biggest advantage for *Prime* LeBron over Luka??

[Laimbeer]

Similar in that they both operate as highly impactful, oversized point guards. But what seperates them most in terms of helping a team win?

The options aren't perfect but I think they hash it out pretty well.

Edited to clarify the comparison is to *prime* LeBron, not current.

[Djoker]

I'd say natural athleticism which made Prime Lebron a better rim finisher and better defender. Luka is a better outside shooter.

[Colbinii]

Early on it was Natural Athleticism and Unselfishness [Not that I think Luka is selfish, I just think Cavaliers LeBron was too unselfish, almost to a fault at times].

LeBron is naturally a better athlete and I am not sure how much better he treated his body compared to Luka in their early 20's.

I think both are Top 1% IQ guys.

[eminence]

Currently it's 'knowledge of the game' and 'conditioning' I don't have Luka all that close to LeBron in those categories (age is somewhat canceling out conditioning). For earlier career LeBron there also existed a gap in natural athleticism, while the knowledge of the game gap was smaller, though I'd say it still existed.

[Dutchball97]

I'd mainly say defense. Sneaky athletic white guy memes aside I do think Luka already benefits from his athleticism more than people give him credit for. He has elite decelration that seems him create plenty of seperation on his shots and he can get to the rim just fine as well. While Luka's speed limits him on defense I doubt Luka would immediately get close to peak LeBron's DPOY contender defense.

[MyUniBroDavis]

if Luka was and fast as athletic as young bron instead of as fast as some members on this forum the league would be cancelled lmao

Is this in general or right now? I took it as in general

[SilentA]

LeBron appears to have an obsessive competitive dedication to the game that manifests in an extreme commitment to conditioning and studiousness of plays/tendencies/etc. Luka whines to refs, is average on defense, and seems to have a "solid but nothing special" dedication to fitness.

Lebron is extremely athletic, but I think the gap in mentality and dedication is larger. Hypothetical:

Scenario 1: Current Luka is equally as dedicated and obsessed as LeBron (to fitness and studying the game/opponents/winning on both sides)
Scenario 2: Luka is exactly as he is now in terms of mindset/commitment, just more naturally athletic

I think neither scenario reaches peak LeBron levels of play, but scenario 1 Luka (matches LeBrons obsession) is a better player than scenario 2 Luka (more naturally athletic Luka, but still so-so dedication to fitness/defense and whines to the refs too much). Scenario 1 Luka might approach Magic Johnson levels of impact. Scenario 2 Luka is just more like MVP James Harden or Westbrook.

Athleticism is important. I'd argue it makes up most of the MJ/Kobe gap, for example. But I'd say mindset is even more so... consider how many freak athletes threw their careers away due to mindset. If Shaq had even 80% of Lebron's discipline and dedication, he'd be a GOAT candidate. What about Shawn Kemp? Charles Barkley? etc.

[Laimbeer]

Editing post to make clear this is prime LeBron v. Luka.

[MyUniBroDavis]

Editing post to make clear this is prime LeBron v. Luka.

Ahhh. Ok

Athleticism BY FAR lmao

Luka with lebrons athleticism is the goat offensive player lol

[McBubbles]

The answer is and will always be Lebron's explosive athleticism.

Fast twitch athleticism is the great equaliser. Fast twitch athleticism is the second most important athletic trait for a perimeter player to have after height (which is the most important trait period). Both and you have GOAT potential.

As ridiculously skilled as MJ and Lebron are, it's not a coincidence that the two best perimeter players ever by a sizable margin, are also the two most explosively athletic perimeter players ever by a sizable margin. Then the 3rd best perimeter player ever in Magic is the tallest PG ever lol.

[MyUniBroDavis]

I think offensively Luka with peak bron athleticism is a pretty fair argument over peak bron lol

[ShaqAttac]

Editing post to make clear this is prime LeBron v. Luka.

Ahhh. Ok

Athleticism BY FAR lmao

Luka with lebrons athleticism is the goat offensive player lol

how there iq comp

[itsxtray]

Athleticism. Luka's much better ballhandling, post & midrange game add natural counters for when teams pack the paint which they successfully did against prime athleticism Lebron. Luka's skills plus Lebron's athleticism is probably the goat on offense.

[Cavsfansince84]

Editing post to make clear this is prime LeBron v. Luka.

Ahhh. Ok

Athleticism BY FAR lmao

Luka with lebrons athleticism is the goat offensive player lol

I'm not entirely sure that Luka with LeBron's athleticism is better than prime LeBron(not even counting defense). I wouldn't even bet on it at this point tbh. I say that as someone fairly high on Luka as well and what he can do and have been since before he was a rookie. I think people are sort of just sweeping under the rug how good and how much mental fortitude/leadership LeBron showed year after year after year as well as how good his shooting was at times relative to current Luka who is not a great shooter. Luka is someone who can be a great shot maker at times but isn't consistently that good.

[Heej]

Editing post to make clear this is prime LeBron v. Luka.

Ahhh. Ok

Athleticism BY FAR lmao

Luka with lebrons athleticism is the goat offensive player lol

I'm not entirely sure that Luka with LeBron's athleticism is better than prime LeBron(not even counting defense). I wouldn't even bet on it at this point tbh. I say that as someone fairly high on Luka as well and what he can do and have been since before he was a rookie. I think people are sort of just sweeping under the rug how good and how much mental fortitude/leadership LeBron showed year after year after year as well as how good his shooting was at times relative to current Luka who is not a great shooter. Luka is someone who can be a great shot maker at times but isn't consistently that good.

Chill lol Luka already has a post game and would be walking into wide open threes every possession if he had Brons athleticism. That being said, the Mentality/work ethic gap between the 2 is extremely high as well. I think Luka is naturally smarter than LeBron in all honesty and it's his skill and IQ that's making up most of the difference. I actually had Luka pegged as the guy who I think ends up with GOAT BBIQ in NBA history until the Jokic anomaly happened.

And I'm not sure Luka has LeBron's eidetic memory or addiction to the film room, but right now it's looking like Bron has the most game knowledge but Jokic has the fastest processing speed since probably Bird. Luka projects to be able to see more angles and map the floor better prime for prime, but even when it comes to passing LeBron's natural athleticism still makes up huge ground vs Luka and Joker because the fast twitch velocity he has on his passes means every pass is a step quicker than what either of those 2 can throw even if he's a half step (or in Jokers case 1-2 steps) slower processing.

I think the clear answer tho is natural athleticism. It manifests in way too many advantages for LeBron that Luka will never have the work ethic to overcome.

[OhayoKD]

Ahhh. Ok

Athleticism BY FAR lmao

Luka with lebrons athleticism is the goat offensive player lol

I'm not entirely sure that Luka with LeBron's athleticism is better than prime LeBron(not even counting defense). I wouldn't even bet on it at this point tbh. I say that as someone fairly high on Luka as well and what he can do and have been since before he was a rookie. I think people are sort of just sweeping under the rug how good and how much mental fortitude/leadership LeBron showed year after year after year as well as how good his shooting was at times relative to current Luka who is not a great shooter. Luka is someone who can be a great shot maker at times but isn't consistently that good.

Chill lol Luka already has a post game and would be walking into wide open threes every possession if he had Brons athleticism. That being said, the Mentality/work ethic gap between the 2 is extremely high as well. I think Luka is naturally smarter than LeBron in all honesty and it's his skill and IQ that's making up most of the difference. I actually had Luka pegged as the guy who I think ends up with GOAT BBIQ in NBA history until the Jokic anomaly happened.

And I'm not sure Luka has LeBron's eidetic memory or addiction to the film room, but right now it's looking like Bron has the most game knowledge but Jokic has the fastest processing speed since probably Bird. Luka projects to be able to see more angles and map the floor better prime for prime, but even when it comes to passing LeBron's natural athleticism still makes up huge ground vs Luka and Joker because the fast twitch velocity he has on his passes means every pass is a step quicker than what either of those 2 can throw even if he's a half step slower processing.

I think the clear answer tho is natural athleticism. It manifests in way too many advantages for LeBron that Luka will never have the work ethic to overcome.

Is this factoring in defensive IQ?

[Heej]

I'm not entirely sure that Luka with LeBron's athleticism is better than prime LeBron(not even counting defense). I wouldn't even bet on it at this point tbh. I say that as someone fairly high on Luka as well and what he can do and have been since before he was a rookie. I think people are sort of just sweeping under the rug how good and how much mental fortitude/leadership LeBron showed year after year after year as well as how good his shooting was at times relative to current Luka who is not a great shooter. Luka is someone who can be a great shot maker at times but isn't consistently that good.

Chill lol Luka already has a post game and would be walking into wide open threes every possession if he had Brons athleticism. That being said, the Mentality/work ethic gap between the 2 is extremely high as well. I think Luka is naturally smarter than LeBron in all honesty and it's his skill and IQ that's making up most of the difference. I actually had Luka pegged as the guy who I think ends up with GOAT BBIQ in NBA history until the Jokic anomaly happened.

And I'm not sure Luka has LeBron's eidetic memory or addiction to the film room, but right now it's looking like Bron has the most game knowledge but Jokic has the fastest processing speed since probably Bird. Luka projects to be able to see more angles and map the floor better prime for prime, but even when it comes to passing LeBron's natural athleticism still makes up huge ground vs Luka and Joker because the fast twitch velocity he has on his passes means every pass is a step quicker than what either of those 2 can throw even if he's a half step slower processing.

I think the clear answer tho is natural athleticism. It manifests in way too many advantages for LeBron that Luka will never have the work ethic to overcome.

Is this factoring in defensive IQ?

Personally I'm of the opinion that defense is mostly effort and watching film. If you can map the floor on offense it's not that hard to predict the Domino effects from when a guy gets back cut or blown by or caught with a mismatch down low and the help gets pulled in and a gap that needs to be plugged briefly appears.

This gets down to what you consider IQ as well. Is knowing all the opponents sets TRULY IQ or is that more an indicator of work ethic? I'd argue processing speed is the clearest indicator and I rate LeBron as clearly a step slower than Jokic reading the help (although height is a SIGNIFICANT factor here), and I think Luka looks more advanced with his reads at the same age. But that may also be because he played spread pnr in Europe for years while LeBron had to learn those reads in the midst of a massive stylistic overhaul/revolution from the post up dead ball era

[Cavsfansince84]

Chill lol Luka already has a post game and would be walking into wide open threes every possession if he had Brons athleticism. That being said, the Mentality/work ethic gap between the 2 is extremely high as well. I think Luka is naturally smarter than LeBron in all honesty and it's his skill and IQ that's making up most of the difference. I actually had Luka pegged as the guy who I think ends up with GOAT BBIQ in NBA history until the Jokic anomaly happened.

And I'm not sure Luka has LeBron's eidetic memory or addiction to the film room, but right now it's looking like Bron has the most game knowledge but Jokic has the fastest processing speed since probably Bird. Luka projects to be able to see more angles and map the floor better prime for prime, but even when it comes to passing LeBron's natural athleticism still makes up huge ground vs Luka and Joker because the fast twitch velocity he has on his passes means every pass is a step quicker than what either of those 2 can throw even if he's a half step (or in Jokers case 1-2 steps) slower processing.

I think the clear answer tho is natural athleticism. It manifests in way too many advantages for LeBron that Luka will never have the work ethic to overcome.

Ya I get you can make a case for Luka because this is hypothetical but I think this is a case where people take for granted what LeBron has actually done/proven and are sort of ready to be optimistic about what Luka can maybe do. People also forget that true prime/athletic LeBron played in a much different era than what Luka has played in the last 3-4 years. So I'm not saying this is a case of right/wrong since its hypothetical but simply that I don't think its a given that Luka with LeBron's athleticism is better minus defense. Luka with LeBron's athleticism likely has a different style as well. I mean you can't be fat in the waist/hips like Luka is (which helps him in the post and to back guys down) and also get to be the quickest guy in the league or close to it like 09 Bron was. So there is a bit of a tradeoff when you do this stuff.

[OhayoKD]

Chill lol Luka already has a post game and would be walking into wide open threes every possession if he had Brons athleticism. That being said, the Mentality/work ethic gap between the 2 is extremely high as well. I think Luka is naturally smarter than LeBron in all honesty and it's his skill and IQ that's making up most of the difference. I actually had Luka pegged as the guy who I think ends up with GOAT BBIQ in NBA history until the Jokic anomaly happened.

And I'm not sure Luka has LeBron's eidetic memory or addiction to the film room, but right now it's looking like Bron has the most game knowledge but Jokic has the fastest processing speed since probably Bird. Luka projects to be able to see more angles and map the floor better prime for prime, but even when it comes to passing LeBron's natural athleticism still makes up huge ground vs Luka and Joker because the fast twitch velocity he has on his passes means every pass is a step quicker than what either of those 2 can throw even if he's a half step slower processing.

I think the clear answer tho is natural athleticism. It manifests in way too many advantages for LeBron that Luka will never have the work ethic to overcome.

Is this factoring in defensive IQ?

Personally I'm of the opinion that defense is mostly effort and watching film. If you can map the floor on offense it's not that hard to predict the Domino effects from when a guy gets back cut or blown by or caught with a mismatch down low and the help gets pulled in and a gap that needs to be plugged briefly appears.

This gets down to what you consider IQ as well. Is knowing all the opponents sets TRULY IQ or is that more an indicator of work ethic? I'd argue processing speed is the clearest indicator and I rate LeBron as clearly a step slower than Jokic reading the help (although height is a SIGNIFICANT factor here), and I think Luka looks more advanced with his reads at the same age. But that may also be because he played spread pnr in Europe for years while LeBron had to learn those reads in the midst of a massive stylistic overhaul/revolution from the post up dead ball era

Not going to pretend I'm qualified to break down these components, but I don't think it always maps 1:1, (See: Larry Bird)

Maybe it is work ethic but...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=205&v=i61OaGo8fjk&feature=youtu.be
("was pretty much subbing his teammates in and out, calling out our whole plays" - bob meyers)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=231&v=LPLn1bjpZDg&feature=youtu.be
("he was pretty much coaching the team on certain actions and that's what he's done his whole career " - KD describing Lebron literally Bill Russelling him")

He's nowhere near my favorite player, but it's wild to me how many of his biggest fans still haven't figured out his effect on a team is alot more than just his Box-composites. It might also explain why his team's "without" gets worse the more they have to play without him (on/off -< wowy -< indirect)

[Heej]

Chill lol Luka already has a post game and would be walking into wide open threes every possession if he had Brons athleticism. That being said, the Mentality/work ethic gap between the 2 is extremely high as well. I think Luka is naturally smarter than LeBron in all honesty and it's his skill and IQ that's making up most of the difference. I actually had Luka pegged as the guy who I think ends up with GOAT BBIQ in NBA history until the Jokic anomaly happened.

And I'm not sure Luka has LeBron's eidetic memory or addiction to the film room, but right now it's looking like Bron has the most game knowledge but Jokic has the fastest processing speed since probably Bird. Luka projects to be able to see more angles and map the floor better prime for prime, but even when it comes to passing LeBron's natural athleticism still makes up huge ground vs Luka and Joker because the fast twitch velocity he has on his passes means every pass is a step quicker than what either of those 2 can throw even if he's a half step (or in Jokers case 1-2 steps) slower processing.

I think the clear answer tho is natural athleticism. It manifests in way too many advantages for LeBron that Luka will never have the work ethic to overcome.

Ya I get you can make a case for Luka because this is hypothetical but I think this is a case where people take for granted what LeBron has actually done/proven and are sort of ready to be optimistic about what Luka can maybe do. People also forget that true prime/athletic LeBron played in a much different era than what Luka has played in the last 3-4 years. So I'm not saying this is a case of right/wrong since its hypothetical but simply that I don't think its a given that Luka with LeBron's athleticism is better minus defense. Luka with LeBron's athleticism likely has a different style as well. I mean you can't be fat in the waist/hips like Luka is (which helps him in the post and to back guys down) and also get to be the quickest guy in the league or close to it like 09 Bron was. So there is a bit of a tradeoff when you do this stuff.

Very true about the league being different. I was thinking that 1:1 athleticism translation doesn't really work for hypotheticals because does that mean we give up the insane deceleration ability Luka has over LeBron that makes up the foundation of his entire game? I'm just taking the most casual approach possible where Luka magically is built the same but randomly runs and jumps like a damn deer.

Even in his prime tho I remember for his size LeBron's first step was always seen as a class below Melo's who was the paragon for a small forward with a blazing first step. LeBron just had everything else. I guess the biggest takeaway more than anything is that Luka suddenly becomes the biggest transition threat in league history, which outside of his great outlet passes or I suppose early transition into half court offense he's not doing a whole ton of damage with his coast to coast transition play.