RealGM

Which player is better, a combo of Steph Curry and Kawhi Leonard's best traits, or a combo of Shaquille O'Neal and Nikola Jokic's best traits?

Interesting... Chef Claw can just play how Steph plays on offense but with more size and strength making it eaiser for him to get to the mid-range and the rim on those days when the 3's aren't falling. He also gets much better on defense becoming clearly the best player in the league.

How does Diesel Joker play? Jokic is a Dho/Pnr hub who isn't that aggressive hunting his own shot compared to most superstars but he's insanely efficient. Shaq is a post up powerhouse grinding away for position in the low post and making quick moves to finish or playing in/out 2 man game. What style are we using?

I gotta go Chef Claw. Shaq's strengths don't really help Jokic imo. Dude's already insanely efficient and making him play like Shaq is worse for team offense imo. Also, no hack a Shaq because he's a good freethrow shooter now. Jokic & Shaq's strengths and weaknesses don't synergize.

Finally, Diesel Joker doesn't address the defensive weakness of that duo whereas chef claw does. This would be better as Jokic Hakeem.

Chef Claw almost certainly. Jokic-Shaq doesn't really add much to each other.

itsxtray wrote:Interesting... Chef Claw can just play how Steph plays on offense but with more size and strength making it eaiser for him to get to the mid-range and the rim on those days when the 3's aren't falling. He also gets much better on defense becoming clearly the best player in the league.

How does Diesel Joker play? Jokic is a Dho/Pnr hub who isn't that aggressive hunting his own shot compared to most superstars but he's insanely efficient. Shaq is a post up powerhouse grinding away for position in the low post and making quick moves to finish or playing in/out 2 man game. What style are we using?

I gotta go Chef Claw. Shaq's strengths don't really help Jokic imo. Dude's already insanely efficient and making him play like Shaq is worse for team offense imo. Also, no hack a Shaq because he's a good freethrow shooter now. Jokic & Shaq's strengths and weaknesses don't synergize.

Finally, Diesel Joker doesn't address the defensive weakness of that duo whereas chef claw does. This would be better as Jokic Hakeem.

It’s interesting when you put it like that and it makes you wonder what Shaq has on Jokic as a basketball player.

If ur talking peak Shaq he’s a better rim protector ofc, and also he’d probably be more dominant in the post with the spacing today, + being a lob threat helps vs certain coverages

Peregrine01 wrote:

itsxtray wrote:Interesting... Chef Claw can just play how Steph plays on offense but with more size and strength making it eaiser for him to get to the mid-range and the rim on those days when the 3's aren't falling. He also gets much better on defense becoming clearly the best player in the league.

How does Diesel Joker play? Jokic is a Dho/Pnr hub who isn't that aggressive hunting his own shot compared to most superstars but he's insanely efficient. Shaq is a post up powerhouse grinding away for position in the low post and making quick moves to finish or playing in/out 2 man game. What style are we using?

I gotta go Chef Claw. Shaq's strengths don't really help Jokic imo. Dude's already insanely efficient and making him play like Shaq is worse for team offense imo. Also, no hack a Shaq because he's a good freethrow shooter now. Jokic & Shaq's strengths and weaknesses don't synergize.

Finally, Diesel Joker doesn't address the defensive weakness of that duo whereas chef claw does. This would be better as Jokic Hakeem.

It’s interesting when you put it like that and it makes you wonder what Shaq has on Jokic as a basketball player.

On offense: significantly more dominant inside presence, better finisher at the rim, better lob finisher, better offensive rebounder.
On defense: better rim protector, better post defender.

70sFan wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:

itsxtray wrote:Interesting... Chef Claw can just play how Steph plays on offense but with more size and strength making it eaiser for him to get to the mid-range and the rim on those days when the 3's aren't falling. He also gets much better on defense becoming clearly the best player in the league.

How does Diesel Joker play? Jokic is a Dho/Pnr hub who isn't that aggressive hunting his own shot compared to most superstars but he's insanely efficient. Shaq is a post up powerhouse grinding away for position in the low post and making quick moves to finish or playing in/out 2 man game. What style are we using?

I gotta go Chef Claw. Shaq's strengths don't really help Jokic imo. Dude's already insanely efficient and making him play like Shaq is worse for team offense imo. Also, no hack a Shaq because he's a good freethrow shooter now. Jokic & Shaq's strengths and weaknesses don't synergize.

Finally, Diesel Joker doesn't address the defensive weakness of that duo whereas chef claw does. This would be better as Jokic Hakeem.

It’s interesting when you put it like that and it makes you wonder what Shaq has on Jokic as a basketball player.

On offense: significantly more dominant inside presence, better finisher at the rim, better lob finisher, better offensive rebounder.
On defense: better rim protector, better post defender.

If you distill offense into those very discrete skills then I agree. But if you’re just talking about plain scoring, would you take Shaq over Jokic?

On defense I agree. Though overall I don’t think the gap is that wide.

Peregrine01 wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:
It’s interesting when you put it like that and it makes you wonder what Shaq has on Jokic as a basketball player.

On offense: significantly more dominant inside presence, better finisher at the rim, better lob finisher, better offensive rebounder.
On defense: better rim protector, better post defender.

If you distill offense into those very discrete skills then I agree. But if you’re just talking about plain scoring, would you take Shaq over Jokic?

On defense I agree. Though overall I don’t think the gap is that wide.

I think their scoring games were used much differently, it's tough to say who is the better scorer. Jokic is more efficient and just plain more skilled, but Shaq's inside presence gave his team an automatic chance for an inside shot, something very few players in the league history could guarantee you on consistent basis.

Jokic crushes Shaq as a passer and that's the main reason why he's a better offensive player, but scoring impact isn't that easy to estimate.

I also agree that the defensive gap isn't big at all, but the margin is visible.

70sFan wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:

70sFan wrote:On offense: significantly more dominant inside presence, better finisher at the rim, better lob finisher, better offensive rebounder.
On defense: better rim protector, better post defender.

If you distill offense into those very discrete skills then I agree. But if you’re just talking about plain scoring, would you take Shaq over Jokic?

On defense I agree. Though overall I don’t think the gap is that wide.

I think their scoring games were used much differently, it's tough to say who is the better scorer. Jokic is more efficient and just plain more skilled, but Shaq's inside presence gave his team an automatic chance for an inside shot, something very few players in the league history could guarantee you on consistent basis.

Jokic crushes Shaq as a passer and that's the main reason why he's a better offensive player, but scoring impact isn't that easy to estimate.

I also agree that the defensive gap isn't big at all, but the margin is visible.

I completely agree that Shaq was a bigger force inside though I disagree that he was an automatic two points in the paint. For one, he could only operate in the paint and he depended on teammates to feed him in those spots. Jokic can play pretty much anywhere on the floor so even when he isn't paired with great guard play or he's being denied aggressively, he can create for himself (and others) on ball.

If we look at all the areas of scoring, I don't see Shaq having an advantage anywhere except deep in the paint.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:If ur talking peak Shaq he’s a better rim protector ofc, and also he’d probably be more dominant in the post with the spacing today, + being a lob threat helps vs certain coverages

I think peak Shaq (400 lbs as he called it) is untenable in today's game. He'd dunk on everyone sure, but he'd get in foul trouble in the first quarter and run off the court. Probably the best version of Shaq for today's game would be the 300 lbs Magic version, who would still be insanely dominant on offense but teams can nullify to an extent by just sending him to the line.

Peregrine01 wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:If ur talking peak Shaq he’s a better rim protector ofc, and also he’d probably be more dominant in the post with the spacing today, + being a lob threat helps vs certain coverages

I think peak Shaq (400 lbs as he called it) is untenable in today's game. He'd dunk on everyone sure, but he'd get in foul trouble in the first quarter and run off the court. Probably the best version of Shaq for today's game would be the 300 lbs Magic version, who would still be insanely dominant on offense but teams can nullify to an extent by just sending him to the line.

Sending him to the line might be valid but with how stuff gets called now they’d be in some insane foul trouble, and 54% with a foul still isn’t that bad even if it’s not as effective as it once was, I think 340-350 Shaq would probably be fine and in terms of being run off the court it really just depends on the type of defense a team is running

He was 340-350 at his peak I think, 2000 ish lakers

You have to be smart with how to defend as a team and how to run ur coverages with him but it’s somewhat like that with Jokic as well, just don’t actively leave them on an island or anything and you’ll do fine most of the time

Chef Claw have significantly less overlap as a combination than Diesel Joker

I like Chef Claw here

Peregrine01 wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:If ur talking peak Shaq he’s a better rim protector ofc, and also he’d probably be more dominant in the post with the spacing today, + being a lob threat helps vs certain coverages

I think peak Shaq (400 lbs as he called it) is untenable in today's game. He'd dunk on everyone sure, but he'd get in foul trouble in the first quarter and run off the court. Probably the best version of Shaq for today's game would be the 300 lbs Magic version, who would still be insanely dominant on offense but teams can nullify to an extent by just sending him to the line.

Not if you give him Nikola's foul shooting.

For the thread, it's easily Superman Joker. Take peak Shaq and make him an 80% foul shooter AND make him the best passer in the league (basically Joker with even more height, thus creating slightly better angles still). If they load up inside, the 7'1" behemoth has a mid-range game and great touch. Shaq was a great ball-handler - underrated trait - but give him Jokic's full-court ball-handling, and the amount of pressure this guy would put on teams is terrifying. Giannis and LBJ couldn't finish at the rim in transition like this mythical player could.

Give Superman Joker a mediocre offensive squad in today's league and pit them against a gauntlet of the four best defensive teams in seven-game series from April to June, and I guarantee the Los Angeles Nuggets w/ this Mythical player ON don't have an On-Court offensive rating below 140 in any game.

This mythical player is so good that if Jaylen Brown was his teammate, he'd actually look like he's worth $300 million.

Peregrine01 wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Peregrine01 wrote:
If you distill offense into those very discrete skills then I agree. But if you’re just talking about plain scoring, would you take Shaq over Jokic?

On defense I agree. Though overall I don’t think the gap is that wide.

I think their scoring games were used much differently, it's tough to say who is the better scorer. Jokic is more efficient and just plain more skilled, but Shaq's inside presence gave his team an automatic chance for an inside shot, something very few players in the league history could guarantee you on consistent basis.

Jokic crushes Shaq as a passer and that's the main reason why he's a better offensive player, but scoring impact isn't that easy to estimate.

I also agree that the defensive gap isn't big at all, but the margin is visible.

I completely agree that Shaq was a bigger force inside though I disagree that he was an automatic two points in the paint. For one, he could only operate in the paint and he depended on teammates to feed him in those spots. Jokic can play pretty much anywhere on the floor so even when he isn't paired with great guard play or he's being denied aggressively, he can create for himself (and others) on ball.

If we look at all the areas of scoring, I don't see Shaq having an advantage anywhere except deep in the paint.

I didn't say he was an automatic two points, but an automatic "chance for an inside shot". It's true that he relied on his teammates to get the ball, but it was very, very hard to deny him the ball. Teams tried everything to do that and they were usually helpless.

If we look at how Shaq's scoring impacted whole team offense, it can be argued that he was more impactful scorer - even if he didn't really have any advantages.

This comparison basically breaks down to Kawhi with GOAT shooting and better passing or Jokic with the ability to jump. I’d definitely agree that Kawhi and Steph’s skills synergize much better together.

You guys are kidding. Give peak Shaq 80% free throw shooting, deadly jumper, 40% 3pters, and historically elite vision, and that’s not much?

dygaction wrote:You guys are kidding. Give peak Shaq 80% free throw shooting, deadly jumper, 40% 3pters, and historically elite vision, and that’s not much?

The issue for me is playstyle. Giving Shaq those advantages but having him play how he played at his peak doesn't fully utilize them but having him play like Jokic is redundant we already have Jokic. The ft shooting is nice but the ftr goes down with no hack a shaq. Also, how much better is team offense combining them? Id argue not much. A Jokic or Shaq/Hakeem hybrid is much better because you shore up their defensive weaknesses in the same way the Kawhi/Steph on does.

I think Diesel Joker fundamentally breaks the game so he gets my vote.

DrModesty wrote:I think Diesel Joker fundamentally breaks the game so he gets my vote.

So does Curry/Kawhi. Hell, 2016 Curry already broke the game.

Peregrine01 wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:If ur talking peak Shaq he’s a better rim protector ofc, and also he’d probably be more dominant in the post with the spacing today, + being a lob threat helps vs certain coverages

I think peak Shaq (400 lbs as he called it) is untenable in today's game. He'd dunk on everyone sure, but he'd get in foul trouble in the first quarter and run off the court. Probably the best version of Shaq for today's game would be the 300 lbs Magic version, who would still be insanely dominant on offense but teams can nullify to an extent by just sending him to the line.

As has been mentioned, I don't think Shaq adds much skillwise to Jokic offensively. So I would also go with Orlando Shaq because Jokic goes from having below average athleticism to having one of the most freakish physical specimens to work with. Not to mention 2 inches taller.