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To me he's one of the toughest players to pinpoint. I feel like there is a pretty wide range depending on how you see his offense.

I think when it all said and done he will be a top 5 player of all time

I think there's an outside argument of him being as good as any other big at his peak, so there's probably a very, very slim GOAT peak case out there? Top 10 is probably more feasible. I have him around the late teens.

I agree with OP, he does have a big range of possible evaluations. Although, kinda like with Durant, the *idea* of him being some sort of superstar offensive player + DPOY sorta clashes with reality.

Somewhat similar to Shaq ? with some obvious differences

I still have some questions about more minute attributes and situations regarding Giannis, but he clearly has the talent + level of play to be Top 10.

I think I see Giannis' peak as a bit better than David Robinson. Giannis' rim attacks give him just a bit more offensive force than the Admiral. But I still see him as a step below the best two way bigs like Kareem/Shaq/Hakeem/Wilt/Duncan to the point where I can't really see an argument over any of them.

High end is probably fringe top-10 (pre-merger guys included) for me

Djoker wrote:I think I see Giannis' peak as a bit better than David Robinson. Giannis' rim attacks give him just a bit more offensive force than the Admiral.

Is there a lot of proof of that? Pre-injury, Robinson was also drawing at .576 FTr even in his era. He was a 59.2% TS guy over that stretch on 25.6 ppg. And we all know he didn't have a dominant backdown game against anyone over 6'7 and was primarily a face-up slasher with a little bit of a short middie.

What really pushes Giannis over Robinson, apart from spacing David never enjoyed in his hey-day?

tsherkin wrote:

Djoker wrote:I think I see Giannis' peak as a bit better than David Robinson. Giannis' rim attacks give him just a bit more offensive force than the Admiral.

Is there a lot of proof of that? Pre-injury, Robinson was also drawing at .576 FTr even in his era. He was a 59.2% TS guy over that stretch on 25.6 ppg. And we all know he didn't have a dominant backdown game against anyone over 6'7 and was primarily a face-up slasher with a little bit of a short middie.

What really pushes Giannis over Robinson, apart from spacing David never enjoyed in his hey-day?

Lateral movement and ballhandling imo

Heej wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

Djoker wrote:I think I see Giannis' peak as a bit better than David Robinson. Giannis' rim attacks give him just a bit more offensive force than the Admiral.

Is there a lot of proof of that? Pre-injury, Robinson was also drawing at .576 FTr even in his era. He was a 59.2% TS guy over that stretch on 25.6 ppg. And we all know he didn't have a dominant backdown game against anyone over 6'7 and was primarily a face-up slasher with a little bit of a short middie.

What really pushes Giannis over Robinson, apart from spacing David never enjoyed in his hey-day?

Lateral movement and ballhandling imo

Robinson would have looked better if he could flagrantly carry all the time too

tsherkin wrote:

Heej wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
Is there a lot of proof of that? Pre-injury, Robinson was also drawing at .576 FTr even in his era. He was a 59.2% TS guy over that stretch on 25.6 ppg. And we all know he didn't have a dominant backdown game against anyone over 6'7 and was primarily a face-up slasher with a little bit of a short middie.

What really pushes Giannis over Robinson, apart from spacing David never enjoyed in his hey-day?

Lateral movement and ballhandling imo

Robinson would have looked better if he could flagrantly carry all the time too

Rules of the day. The Wiz board used to nickname LeBron, LeTravel for all the extra steps the refs let him get away with. While I get upset at the newbies that claim that older ballhandlers were much less skilled than the likes of Kyrie Irving, if the refs are letting you carry and travel with the ball, you'd have to have a low BBIQ not to take advantage.

High end? At best slightly worse than Kevin Garnett.

Giannis has only ever showed flashes of truly dominant defense IMO. He's never sustained it.

Offensively, even if I was high on him his resilience is objectively at question.

But I'm not high on him. There's gonna be anywhere from 5 to 10 better offensive players than peak Giannis every year. The Mitchell's and Tatum's of the world are right on his tail, if not surpassing him.

He's a huge spacing negative that needs the ball to have gravity and forces dynamic offensive players into worse offensive roles where they can't thrive fully.

I've been saying this for years. Now look at how clunky he and Lillard are together and how one explodes without the other.


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ShotCreator wrote:High end? At best slightly worse than Kevin Garnett.

Giannis has only ever showed flashes of truly dominant defense IMO. He's never sustained it.

Offensively, even if I was high on him his resilience is objectively at question.

But I'm not high on him. There's gonna be anywhere from 5 to 10 better offensive players than peak Giannis every year. The Mitchell's and Tatum's of the world are right on his tail, if not surpassing him.

He's a huge spacing negative that needs the ball to have gravity and forces dynamic offensive players into worse offensive roles where they can't thrive fully.

I've been saying this for years. Now look at how clunky he and Lillard are together and how one explodes without the other.


viewtopic.php?p=82832076#p82832076

I think you make some valid points and how well Dame and Giannis can work together is something to watch in terms of how well both guys can make something work which on paper should work very well. Giannis is only 28 with 1 title in the bag and everything to play for so really no excuses if they can't. He's in what should be his peak years.

tsherkin wrote:

Heej wrote:

tsherkin wrote:
Is there a lot of proof of that? Pre-injury, Robinson was also drawing at .576 FTr even in his era. He was a 59.2% TS guy over that stretch on 25.6 ppg. And we all know he didn't have a dominant backdown game against anyone over 6'7 and was primarily a face-up slasher with a little bit of a short middie.

What really pushes Giannis over Robinson, apart from spacing David never enjoyed in his hey-day?

Lateral movement and ballhandling imo

Robinson would have looked better if he could flagrantly carry all the time too

True but Giannis is an elite ballhandler for his size. He just looks less impressive cuz KD exists

I have to watch some more Robinson film to be sure but I also suspect Giannis has a functionally stronger lower body. I'd easily give Admiral the edge in upper body strength but he looked a bit lighter in the shorts than Freak

Jaivl wrote:I think there's an outside argument of him being as good as any other big at his peak, so there's probably a very, very slim GOAT peak case out there? Top 10 is probably more feasible. I have him around the late teens.

I agree with OP, he does have a big range of possible evaluations. Although, kinda like with Durant, the *idea* of him being some sort of superstar offensive player + DPOY sorta clashes with reality.

I think Giannis came far closer to being an offensive superstar while being a DPOY level defender. I think Durant is much more theory as his offensive impact has never really matched his individual scoring accumen and while he's a good defender for an offensive superstar, he's never been an elite one.

Not sure how high I'd have Giannis' peak in a relative sense, but definitely higher than KD's.

So going by the data since ‘97, it goes Shaq/LeBron/Giannis as rim finishers by volume/efficiency. Giannis peaking higher than LeBron in that area since his volume was even higher.

He is a blunt force. Not the prettiest to watch but just attacks you with no hesitation. Dropped 50 to win an NBA Finals while averaging like 35/13/5 on a .658 TS%, won multiple MVPs and DPOY.

In the top 10 mix for sure, probably slightly outside of it for me because of the offensive limitations. But depending on what you value, he could be ranked even higher than I rank him. I mean 35/13/5 efficiently to win a Finals while dropping 50/14 in the clincher? In a Finals where his most memorable play was on defense? Legendary player.

tsherkin wrote:

Djoker wrote:I think I see Giannis' peak as a bit better than David Robinson. Giannis' rim attacks give him just a bit more offensive force than the Admiral.

Is there a lot of proof of that? Pre-injury, Robinson was also drawing at .576 FTr even in his era. He was a 59.2% TS guy over that stretch on 25.6 ppg. And we all know he didn't have a dominant backdown game against anyone over 6'7 and was primarily a face-up slasher with a little bit of a short middie.

What really pushes Giannis over Robinson, apart from spacing David never enjoyed in his hey-day?

In the playoffs, Robinson was a clear notch below 2021 Giannis on offense.

I'm always comparing relative to their eras. Thus era differences are inherently accounted for.

Maybe I’m overrating him but his accolades put him in the Hakeem / Shaq / Duncan.

He can do things that all 3 of those guys can’t
Not saying he’s better then them btw

Statistically you can really put him right there with any of the dominant bigs, genuinely you can.

He already has 3 seasons in top 40 of WS/48, incredible scoring and rebounding numbers, a DPOY, etc. His 2021 title run ranks above even peak Shaq in VORP I believe. The numbers really point to historical dominance if you look at them in the right light.

Eye test wise though and scheme fit I am a) lower on him as a defensive centerpiece than the blocks and defensive numbers would show and b) think his style is not super conducive to winning in crunch time.

I would place him just slightly slightly below Kareem Wilt Duncan Shaq and Hakeem, and around even with KG. But you could make a statistical case that he's absolutely as good as any of them and it would be very hard to refute.

Heej wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

Heej wrote:Lateral movement and ballhandling imo

Robinson would have looked better if he could flagrantly carry all the time too

True but Giannis is an elite ballhandler for his size. He just looks less impressive cuz KD exists

I have to watch some more Robinson film to be sure but I also suspect Giannis has a functionally stronger lower body. I'd easily give Admiral the edge in upper body strength but he looked a bit lighter in the shorts than Freak

I think that Giannis is a better ball-handler than Durant.