RealGM

Hi everyone!

During the last months, I got the proven info that the league has a limited, but significant amount of 1960s NBA games. I wonder if we could create a petition for the particular one I'm 99% sure they have complete: 13.11.1965 76ers vs Knicks regular season matchup. Here are short highlights from this game on NBA.com:

https://www.nba.com/watch/video/rare-hal-greer-footage-against-the-knicks

Boxscore:

https://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/196511130NYK.html

Why this game?

1. I have reasons to believe they have it complete.
2. It's extremely rare to have anything from 1965/66 season that is not Celtics game.
3. The game features one of Hal Greer's best scoring performances and what we have from highlights suggest a very interesting synergy with Wilt.
4. It's Wilt vs NYK Twin Towers matchup.
5. Dick Barnett with a high scoring game is always a treasure

6. My personal reason - it's the only season from 1962-68 period I don't have any significant amount of Wilt footage from and I'd like to take some notes on his tendencies (especially in comparison with pre-1966 and 1967).

I wonder if we could make a collective order for this game, is there anyone interested in that? I can cover the costs, it's not about that. I just think that the bigger community has a bigger chance to reach the goal. I can also talk with Ben Taylor if necessary, I have been in touch with him for a long time.

Please let me know what you think about it.

Doctor MJ wrote:...

I would especially like to know your opinion about this Doc, if you don't mind.

I'd certainly be willing to sign any petition, and possibly help in other ways if time/etc allows.

trex_8063 wrote:I'd certainly be willing to sign any petition, and possibly help in other ways if time/etc allows.

I'm very glad to hear that! I have experience with talking to media archives, but as a non-native speaker I think I'd need help to write such petition. Of course we need more people.

Fantastic.count me in and go knicks !!

I am willing to help as well.

Didn’t some of y’all hate on a dude who was saying there was a ton of 60s footage in the vault lol

MyUniBroDavis wrote:Didn’t some of y’all hate on a dude who was saying there was a ton of 60s footage in the vault lol

I don't remember hating anyone on this board...

The guy you are talking about suggested that the league has all games - RS and PS - from the 1960s based on "reliable source" that he never revealed. I know that this is not true, because guys who works with the league (Todd Spher, Ben Taylor) told me so. I have been working with archival footage for years and I know that the league has a lot of unpublished games, but it's not even close to what this guy suggested.

70sFan wrote:

MyUniBroDavis wrote:Didn’t some of y’all hate on a dude who was saying there was a ton of 60s footage in the vault lol

I don't remember hating anyone on this board...

The guy you are talking about suggested that the league has all games - RS and PS - from the 1960s based on "reliable source" that he never revealed. I know that this is not true, because guys who works with the league (Todd Spher, Ben Taylor) told me so. I have been working with archival footage for years and I know that the league has a lot of unpublished games, but it's not even close to what this guy suggested.

Hating on =/= hating

Valid

70sFan wrote:

trex_8063 wrote:I'd certainly be willing to sign any petition, and possibly help in other ways if time/etc allows.

I'm very glad to hear that! I have experience with talking to media archives, but as a non-native speaker I think I'd need help to write such petition. Of course we need more people.

Happy to help. Questions:

1. When you say "petition", are you referring to a specific NBA process, or are you just talking about reaching out to the NBA in general?
2. Of the 6 reasons you give, are there any you feel strongly should or should not be mentioned in our petition?
3. Is there anything else we should be aware of in beginning this process that you could give us a head's up on?

Doctor MJ wrote:

70sFan wrote:

trex_8063 wrote:I'd certainly be willing to sign any petition, and possibly help in other ways if time/etc allows.

I'm very glad to hear that! I have experience with talking to media archives, but as a non-native speaker I think I'd need help to write such petition. Of course we need more people.

Happy to help. Questions:

1. When you say "petition", are you referring to a specific NBA process, or are you just talking about reaching out to the NBA in general?
2. Of the 6 reasons you give, are there any you feel strongly should or should not be mentioned in our petition?
3. Is there anything else we should be aware of in beginning this process that you could give us a head's up on?

1. Just reaching out in general, I know how to contact them, but I don't have enough clout.
2. I think we need to work on how to present our argumentation to make it more persuasive in general, but I don't have any strong feelings about any of these points in particular.
3. I think we should be aware that there is a big chance that the league archivists will respond that their policy is that they don't share full games. Other than that, I don't think we have anything to fear.

I am not sure if the official petition is the best option. Maybe you could ask Ben how to deal with this matter? I could do that, but I already got a lot of help from Ben in October and I don't want to push him too much. Of course if there is any reason why you can't talk with Ben, I can do that (or if you think that's not a good idea, just tell me).

70sFan wrote:.

I was just wondering.. When you say significant number of 60's games, I'd imagine they have a lot of playoff particularly finals games. What % of say Russell's and Wilt's playoff games do you think they have on tape?

70sFan wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

70sFan wrote:I'm very glad to hear that! I have experience with talking to media archives, but as a non-native speaker I think I'd need help to write such petition. Of course we need more people.

Happy to help. Questions:

1. When you say "petition", are you referring to a specific NBA process, or are you just talking about reaching out to the NBA in general?
2. Of the 6 reasons you give, are there any you feel strongly should or should not be mentioned in our petition?
3. Is there anything else we should be aware of in beginning this process that you could give us a head's up on?

1. Just reaching out in general, I know how to contact them, but I don't have enough clout.
2. I think we need to work on how to present our argumentation to make it more persuasive in general, but I don't have any strong feelings about any of these points in particular.
3. I think we should be aware that there is a big chance that the league archivists will respond that their policy is that they don't share full games. Other than that, I don't think we have anything to fear.

I am not sure if the official petition is the best option. Maybe you could ask Ben how to deal with this matter? I could do that, but I already got a lot of help from Ben in October and I don't want to push him too much. Of course if there is any reason why you can't talk with Ben, I can do that (or if you think that's not a good idea, just tell me).

I can bring it up with Ben, and we can make plans from there.

Doctor MJ wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:
Happy to help. Questions:

1. When you say "petition", are you referring to a specific NBA process, or are you just talking about reaching out to the NBA in general?
2. Of the 6 reasons you give, are there any you feel strongly should or should not be mentioned in our petition?
3. Is there anything else we should be aware of in beginning this process that you could give us a head's up on?

1. Just reaching out in general, I know how to contact them, but I don't have enough clout.
2. I think we need to work on how to present our argumentation to make it more persuasive in general, but I don't have any strong feelings about any of these points in particular.
3. I think we should be aware that there is a big chance that the league archivists will respond that their policy is that they don't share full games. Other than that, I don't think we have anything to fear.

I am not sure if the official petition is the best option. Maybe you could ask Ben how to deal with this matter? I could do that, but I already got a lot of help from Ben in October and I don't want to push him too much. Of course if there is any reason why you can't talk with Ben, I can do that (or if you think that's not a good idea, just tell me).

I can bring it up with Ben, and we can make plans from there.

Thank you, I appreciate that. Keep me updated.

Djoker wrote:

70sFan wrote:.

I was just wondering.. When you say significant number of 60's games, I'd imagine they have a lot of playoff particularly finals games. What % of say Russell's and Wilt's playoff games do you think they have on tape?

Oh, by "significant number" I meant dozens of games, but not even close to full seasons or even postseasons.

I think they don't have many broadcasts but most of their footage comes from silent tapes that rarely captured full games. The big exception is 1960s Knicks coaching tapes (like the one I presented), it seems that they have a huge amount of them and they are usually complete. Unfortunately, Knicks were not relevant in the playoffs for the majority of the 1960s.

I know they have at least:

- one Celtics vs Knicks game from 1958/59,
- one Warriors Vs Knicks game from 1959/60,
- Baylor career high game (likely incomplete),
- around 10 Knicks games from 1961-62,
- Wilt's 73 points game from 1962/63,
- Warriors vs Knicks game from 1963/64,
- Royals vs Knicks game from 1964 or 1965,
- Lakers vs Knicks game from 1964/65
- Sixers vs Knicks game from 1965/65,
- many Knicks games from the late 1960s.

I have a few such silent Knicks tapes myself in my collection.

70sFan wrote:

Djoker wrote:

70sFan wrote:.

I was just wondering.. When you say significant number of 60's games, I'd imagine they have a lot of playoff particularly finals games. What % of say Russell's and Wilt's playoff games do you think they have on tape?

Oh, by "significant number" I meant dozens of games, but not even close to full seasons or even postseasons.

I think they don't have many broadcasts but most of their footage comes from silent tapes that rarely captured full games. The big exception is 1960s Knicks coaching tapes (like the one I presented), it seems that they have a huge amount of them and they are usually complete. Unfortunately, Knicks were not relevant in the playoffs for the majority of the 1960s.

I know they have at least:

- one Celtics vs Knicks game from 1958/59,
- one Warriors Vs Knicks game from 1959/60,
- Baylor career high game (likely incomplete),
- around 10 Knicks games from 1961-62,
- Wilt's 73 points game from 1962/63,
- Warriors vs Knicks game from 1963/64,
- Royals vs Knicks game from 1964 or 1965,
- Lakers vs Knicks game from 1964/65
- Sixers vs Knicks game from 1965/65,
- many Knicks games from the late 1960s.

I have a few such silent Knicks tapes myself in my collection.

I continue to not get it.

What entity owns the footage? If it’s the NBA what is the monetary advantage to withholding it? It seems like it’d be great content for NBA TV, the website, league pass, etc.

Why are these tapes being kept from the public? Who benefits from that?

SNPA wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Djoker wrote:
I was just wondering.. When you say significant number of 60's games, I'd imagine they have a lot of playoff particularly finals games. What % of say Russell's and Wilt's playoff games do you think they have on tape?

Oh, by "significant number" I meant dozens of games, but not even close to full seasons or even postseasons.

I think they don't have many broadcasts but most of their footage comes from silent tapes that rarely captured full games. The big exception is 1960s Knicks coaching tapes (like the one I presented), it seems that they have a huge amount of them and they are usually complete. Unfortunately, Knicks were not relevant in the playoffs for the majority of the 1960s.

I know they have at least:

- one Celtics vs Knicks game from 1958/59,
- one Warriors Vs Knicks game from 1959/60,
- Baylor career high game (likely incomplete),
- around 10 Knicks games from 1961-62,
- Wilt's 73 points game from 1962/63,
- Warriors vs Knicks game from 1963/64,
- Royals vs Knicks game from 1964 or 1965,
- Lakers vs Knicks game from 1964/65
- Sixers vs Knicks game from 1965/65,
- many Knicks games from the late 1960s.

I have a few such silent Knicks tapes myself in my collection.

I continue to not get it.

What entity owns the footage? If it’s the NBA what is the monetary advantage to withholding it? It seems like it’d be great content for NBA TV, the website, league pass, etc.

Why are these tapes being kept from the public? Who benefits from that?

Maybe they are afraid that if fans start watching old games, the current product revenues will suffer.

SNPA wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Djoker wrote:
I was just wondering.. When you say significant number of 60's games, I'd imagine they have a lot of playoff particularly finals games. What % of say Russell's and Wilt's playoff games do you think they have on tape?

Oh, by "significant number" I meant dozens of games, but not even close to full seasons or even postseasons.

I think they don't have many broadcasts but most of their footage comes from silent tapes that rarely captured full games. The big exception is 1960s Knicks coaching tapes (like the one I presented), it seems that they have a huge amount of them and they are usually complete. Unfortunately, Knicks were not relevant in the playoffs for the majority of the 1960s.

I know they have at least:

- one Celtics vs Knicks game from 1958/59,
- one Warriors Vs Knicks game from 1959/60,
- Baylor career high game (likely incomplete),
- around 10 Knicks games from 1961-62,
- Wilt's 73 points game from 1962/63,
- Warriors vs Knicks game from 1963/64,
- Royals vs Knicks game from 1964 or 1965,
- Lakers vs Knicks game from 1964/65
- Sixers vs Knicks game from 1965/65,
- many Knicks games from the late 1960s.

I have a few such silent Knicks tapes myself in my collection.

I continue to not get it.

What entity owns the footage? If it’s the NBA what is the monetary advantage to withholding it? It seems like it’d be great content for NBA TV, the website, league pass, etc.

Why are these tapes being kept from the public? Who benefits from that?

I don't have the answer for these questions. I know that digitising process is very expensive and time consuming. I also know that they worked on transfering everything they have in their storages. They shared a lot of new clips for the 75th anniversary, some of which definitely came from full games reels. Then there is a matter of these games being silent, B&W coaching tapes - maybe they think such tapes are not a good product to sell?

Maybe they will create some kind of platform to watch old games at some point, but with more years passed I am starting to lose any hope.

SNPA wrote:

70sFan wrote:

Djoker wrote:
I was just wondering.. When you say significant number of 60's games, I'd imagine they have a lot of playoff particularly finals games. What % of say Russell's and Wilt's playoff games do you think they have on tape?

Oh, by "significant number" I meant dozens of games, but not even close to full seasons or even postseasons.

I think they don't have many broadcasts but most of their footage comes from silent tapes that rarely captured full games. The big exception is 1960s Knicks coaching tapes (like the one I presented), it seems that they have a huge amount of them and they are usually complete. Unfortunately, Knicks were not relevant in the playoffs for the majority of the 1960s.

I know they have at least:

- one Celtics vs Knicks game from 1958/59,
- one Warriors Vs Knicks game from 1959/60,
- Baylor career high game (likely incomplete),
- around 10 Knicks games from 1961-62,
- Wilt's 73 points game from 1962/63,
- Warriors vs Knicks game from 1963/64,
- Royals vs Knicks game from 1964 or 1965,
- Lakers vs Knicks game from 1964/65
- Sixers vs Knicks game from 1965/65,
- many Knicks games from the late 1960s.

I have a few such silent Knicks tapes myself in my collection.

I continue to not get it.

What entity owns the footage? If it’s the NBA what is the monetary advantage to withholding it? It seems like it’d be great content for NBA TV, the website, league pass, etc.

Why are these tapes being kept from the public? Who benefits from that?

It's extra labor as well as opportunity cost for a product they think there won't be much interest in.

I also think there is another important aspect of this game - this would be the only semi-complete game from Wilt's scoring prime in an era with modern sized paint and I'd love to compare Wilt's style and shooting distribution from that era to the games I have from pre-1965 (and I have quite a lot of material to work with).