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Russell Westbrook Requests To Come Off Bench For Clippers

After the previous issues with the Rockets and Lakers, there was a lot of negativity about Westbrook's game not fitting in once he was no longer able to just dominate everyone physically. I liked his play with the Wizards and like that he seems to be trying to be a team guy as opposed to late career Iverson in Detroit for contrast.

How do you feel about his post prime career at the moment?

He obviously endured a lot of negative press and has demonstrated verbally that he has grown from the abuse. LOL, Harden needs to go through a few years of RW treatment now, but I'll hold off judgement to see how this translates to the court. It takes a lot of maturation to do what he did, so I applaud that, however, it could all unravel very quickly as well. Prior to this, I was enjoying his play with the Clippers far more than anytime with the Lakers FWIW.

I think if anything it exposed what was seen as a weakness even more(mainly his bbiq/decision making criticisms). Chances are his bbiq has not declined. If anything, it almost always goes up as a player ages. So if its a major criticism of him in his 30's(along with the turnovers) then chances are it was being covered up due to athleticism and playing on talented teams in his 20's.

Faulty premise. Russ was good on the Rockets and Wizards in the second half of those seasons once he was recovered from knee operations. He was good as soon as he was traded to Clippers. He was good to start this season pre-Harden.

He was a bad fit on the Lakers, and specfically with Lebron who many ball dominant stars have struggled to fit in with. For some reason we seem to be solely faulting Westbrook for that and lumping it in with his injury recoveries.

He's been the same player the entire time with the same strengths and weaknesses. He's never been a very successful PO guy, but the notion that he should've come off the bench sooner seems to be missing the point.

VanWest82 wrote:Faulty premise. Russ was good on the Rockets and Wizards in the second half of those seasons once he was recovered from knee operations. He was good as soon as he was traded to Clippers. He was good to start this season pre-Harden.

He was a bad fit on the Lakers, and specfically with Lebron who many ball dominant stars have struggled to fit in with. For some reason we seem to be solely faulting Westbrook for that and lumping it in with his injury recoveries.

He's been the same player the entire time with the same strengths and weaknesses. He's never been a very successful PO guy, but the notion that he should've come off the bench sooner seems to be missing the point.

Once again, we have narratives being created even though there is data that is easily accessible and free that dispels these narratives but yet people like you in many threads continue to propagate them. The Lakers found a way for LeBron and Westbrook to work together this year, but the problem was that if LeBron wasn’t on the court the Lakers had too many gaps, not enough neutral or plus players, and Westbrook by himself on court couldn’t do anything.

Lakers in 2022-2023 with Westbrook

Westbrook + LeBron ON court (all games): 114.2 ORtg, 108.2 DRtg, +6.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after 2-10 start: 117.8 ORtg, 108.7 DRtg, +9.1 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court, AD OFF court (all games): 119.8 ORtg, 111.8 DRtg, +8.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after AD’s injury in December (24 games): 118.7 ORtg, 103.9 DRtg, +14.8 NET

Westbrook ON court, LeBron and AD OFF court (all games): 106.6 ORtg, 120.6 DRtg, -14.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron + AD ON Court (all games): 113.8 ORtg, 112.0 DRtg, +1.8 NET

Westbrook + AD ON court, LeBron OFF court: 119.2 ORtg, 120.2 DRtg, -1.0 NET

These are the numbers and they go against whatever narrative you try to push in every thread

homecourtloss wrote:

VanWest82 wrote:Faulty premise. Russ was good on the Rockets and Wizards in the second half of those seasons once he was recovered from knee operations. He was good as soon as he was traded to Clippers. He was good to start this season pre-Harden.

He was a bad fit on the Lakers, and specfically with Lebron who many ball dominant stars have struggled to fit in with. For some reason we seem to be solely faulting Westbrook for that and lumping it in with his injury recoveries.

He's been the same player the entire time with the same strengths and weaknesses. He's never been a very successful PO guy, but the notion that he should've come off the bench sooner seems to be missing the point.

Once again, we have narratives being created even though there is data that is easily accessible and free that dispels these narratives but yet people like you in many threads continue to propagate them. The Lakers found a way for LeBron and Westbrook to work together this year, but the problem was that if LeBron wasn’t on the court the Lakers had too many gaps, not enough neutral or plus players, and Westbrook by himself on court couldn’t do anything.

Lakers in 2022-2023 with Westbrook

Westbrook + LeBron ON court (all games): 114.2 ORtg, 108.2 DRtg, +6.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after 2-10 start: 117.8 ORtg, 108.7 DRtg, +9.1 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court, AD OFF court (all games): 119.8 ORtg, 111.8 DRtg, +8.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after AD’s injury in December (24 games): 118.7 ORtg, 103.9 DRtg, +14.8 NET

Westbrook ON court, LeBron and AD OFF court (all games): 106.6 ORtg, 120.6 DRtg, -14.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron + AD ON Court (all games): 113.8 ORtg, 112.0 DRtg, +1.8 NET

Westbrook + AD ON court, LeBron OFF court: 119.2 ORtg, 120.2 DRtg, -1.0 NET

These are the numbers and they go against whatever narrative you try to push in every thread

In every thread, huh? Because I'm oh-so-active in so many threads trying to push this Russ narrative. **** off.

This doesn't dispell anything; instead, it's supportive of the fact that Lebron was an idiot for leaning on Lakers brass to trade away their depth and go all in on a big three. So yeah, they sucked when Lebron wasn't on the court because they had crappy players.

What was Russ's ind stats with Lebron on vs. off? How do those stats compare to Russ (non-injured) in Houston, Washington, and with the Clippers?

VanWest82 wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:

VanWest82 wrote:Faulty premise. Russ was good on the Rockets and Wizards in the second half of those seasons once he was recovered from knee operations. He was good as soon as he was traded to Clippers. He was good to start this season pre-Harden.

He was a bad fit on the Lakers, and specfically with Lebron who many ball dominant stars have struggled to fit in with. For some reason we seem to be solely faulting Westbrook for that and lumping it in with his injury recoveries.

He's been the same player the entire time with the same strengths and weaknesses. He's never been a very successful PO guy, but the notion that he should've come off the bench sooner seems to be missing the point.

Once again, we have narratives being created even though there is data that is easily accessible and free that dispels these narratives but yet people like you in many threads continue to propagate them. The Lakers found a way for LeBron and Westbrook to work together this year, but the problem was that if LeBron wasn’t on the court the Lakers had too many gaps, not enough neutral or plus players, and Westbrook by himself on court couldn’t do anything.

Lakers in 2022-2023 with Westbrook

Westbrook + LeBron ON court (all games): 114.2 ORtg, 108.2 DRtg, +6.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after 2-10 start: 117.8 ORtg, 108.7 DRtg, +9.1 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court, AD OFF court (all games): 119.8 ORtg, 111.8 DRtg, +8.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after AD’s injury in December (24 games): 118.7 ORtg, 103.9 DRtg, +14.8 NET

Westbrook ON court, LeBron and AD OFF court (all games): 106.6 ORtg, 120.6 DRtg, -14.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron + AD ON Court (all games): 113.8 ORtg, 112.0 DRtg, +1.8 NET

Westbrook + AD ON court, LeBron OFF court: 119.2 ORtg, 120.2 DRtg, -1.0 NET

These are the numbers and they go against whatever narrative you try to push in every thread

In every thread, huh? Because I'm oh-so-active in so many threads trying to push this Russ narrative. **** off.

This doesn't dispell anything; instead, it's supportive of the fact that Lebron was an idiot for leaning on Lakers brass to trade away their depth and go all in on a big three. So yeah, they sucked when Lebron wasn't on the court because they had crappy players.

What was Russ's ind stats with Lebron on vs. off? How do those stats compare to Russ (non-injured) in Houston, Washington, and with the Clippers?

Angry post that is completely wrong. Also, reported.

VanWest82 wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:

VanWest82 wrote:Faulty premise. Russ was good on the Rockets and Wizards in the second half of those seasons once he was recovered from knee operations. He was good as soon as he was traded to Clippers. He was good to start this season pre-Harden.

He was a bad fit on the Lakers, and specfically with Lebron who many ball dominant stars have struggled to fit in with. For some reason we seem to be solely faulting Westbrook for that and lumping it in with his injury recoveries.

He's been the same player the entire time with the same strengths and weaknesses. He's never been a very successful PO guy, but the notion that he should've come off the bench sooner seems to be missing the point.

Once again, we have narratives being created even though there is data that is easily accessible and free that dispels these narratives but yet people like you in many threads continue to propagate them. The Lakers found a way for LeBron and Westbrook to work together this year, but the problem was that if LeBron wasn’t on the court the Lakers had too many gaps, not enough neutral or plus players, and Westbrook by himself on court couldn’t do anything.

Lakers in 2022-2023 with Westbrook

Westbrook + LeBron ON court (all games): 114.2 ORtg, 108.2 DRtg, +6.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after 2-10 start: 117.8 ORtg, 108.7 DRtg, +9.1 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court, AD OFF court (all games): 119.8 ORtg, 111.8 DRtg, +8.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after AD’s injury in December (24 games): 118.7 ORtg, 103.9 DRtg, +14.8 NET

Westbrook ON court, LeBron and AD OFF court (all games): 106.6 ORtg, 120.6 DRtg, -14.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron + AD ON Court (all games): 113.8 ORtg, 112.0 DRtg, +1.8 NET

Westbrook + AD ON court, LeBron OFF court: 119.2 ORtg, 120.2 DRtg, -1.0 NET

These are the numbers and they go against whatever narrative you try to push in every thread

In every thread, huh? Because I'm oh-so-active in so many threads trying to push this Russ narrative. **** off.

This doesn't dispell anything; instead, it's supportive of the fact that Lebron was an idiot for leaning on Lakers brass to trade away their depth and go all in on a big three. So yeah, they sucked when Lebron wasn't on the court because they had crappy players.

What was Russ's ind stats with Lebron on vs. off? How do those stats compare to Russ (non-injured) in Houston, Washington, and with the Clippers?

Yeah, telling someone off like that won't fly. Warned.

Westbrook's post OKC career neither moves him up or own in my book. This period in his career has very low impact on my All-Time ratings of Russ. 6.7 VORP from the 2020-2024 regular seasons combined. -0.2 playoff BPM.

I do enjoy his personality though and respect him a lot as a competitor. He's shown the same competitive fire in these late career years as he had in his prime.

homecourtloss wrote:

VanWest82 wrote:Faulty premise. Russ was good on the Rockets and Wizards in the second half of those seasons once he was recovered from knee operations. He was good as soon as he was traded to Clippers. He was good to start this season pre-Harden.

He was a bad fit on the Lakers, and specfically with Lebron who many ball dominant stars have struggled to fit in with. For some reason we seem to be solely faulting Westbrook for that and lumping it in with his injury recoveries.

He's been the same player the entire time with the same strengths and weaknesses. He's never been a very successful PO guy, but the notion that he should've come off the bench sooner seems to be missing the point.

Once again, we have narratives being created even though there is data that is easily accessible and free that dispels these narratives but yet people like you in many threads continue to propagate them. The Lakers found a way for LeBron and Westbrook to work together this year, but the problem was that if LeBron wasn’t on the court the Lakers had too many gaps, not enough neutral or plus players, and Westbrook by himself on court couldn’t do anything.

Lakers in 2022-2023 with Westbrook

Westbrook + LeBron ON court (all games): 114.2 ORtg, 108.2 DRtg, +6.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after 2-10 start: 117.8 ORtg, 108.7 DRtg, +9.1 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court, AD OFF court (all games): 119.8 ORtg, 111.8 DRtg, +8.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after AD’s injury in December (24 games): 118.7 ORtg, 103.9 DRtg, +14.8 NET

Westbrook ON court, LeBron and AD OFF court (all games): 106.6 ORtg, 120.6 DRtg, -14.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron + AD ON Court (all games): 113.8 ORtg, 112.0 DRtg, +1.8 NET

Westbrook + AD ON court, LeBron OFF court: 119.2 ORtg, 120.2 DRtg, -1.0 NET

These are the numbers and they go against whatever narrative you try to push in every thread

Thinking lebron and ball dominant guards inherently doesnt work screams not understanding basketball lol it’s hilarious

homecourtloss wrote:

VanWest82 wrote:Faulty premise. Russ was good on the Rockets and Wizards in the second half of those seasons once he was recovered from knee operations. He was good as soon as he was traded to Clippers. He was good to start this season pre-Harden.

He was a bad fit on the Lakers, and specfically with Lebron who many ball dominant stars have struggled to fit in with. For some reason we seem to be solely faulting Westbrook for that and lumping it in with his injury recoveries.

He's been the same player the entire time with the same strengths and weaknesses. He's never been a very successful PO guy, but the notion that he should've come off the bench sooner seems to be missing the point.

Once again, we have narratives being created even though there is data that is easily accessible and free that dispels these narratives but yet people like you in many threads continue to propagate them. The Lakers found a way for LeBron and Westbrook to work together this year, but the problem was that if LeBron wasn’t on the court the Lakers had too many gaps, not enough neutral or plus players, and Westbrook by himself on court couldn’t do anything.

Lakers in 2022-2023 with Westbrook

Westbrook + LeBron ON court (all games): 114.2 ORtg, 108.2 DRtg, +6.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after 2-10 start: 117.8 ORtg, 108.7 DRtg, +9.1 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court, AD OFF court (all games): 119.8 ORtg, 111.8 DRtg, +8.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after AD’s injury in December (24 games): 118.7 ORtg, 103.9 DRtg, +14.8 NET

Westbrook ON court, LeBron and AD OFF court (all games): 106.6 ORtg, 120.6 DRtg, -14.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron + AD ON Court (all games): 113.8 ORtg, 112.0 DRtg, +1.8 NET

Westbrook + AD ON court, LeBron OFF court: 119.2 ORtg, 120.2 DRtg, -1.0 NET

These are the numbers and they go against whatever narrative you try to push in every thread

Where do you get season splits for on court points differentials? Pbbstats only seems to have a filter for the entire regular season, playoffs, and RS + PS combined.

Honestly, no. If he retired in 2020, I'd rate his career exactly the same as I do now. The only thing that could really make any change at all right now is if he was a significant contributor to a championship.

WestGOAT wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:

VanWest82 wrote:Faulty premise. Russ was good on the Rockets and Wizards in the second half of those seasons once he was recovered from knee operations. He was good as soon as he was traded to Clippers. He was good to start this season pre-Harden.

He was a bad fit on the Lakers, and specfically with Lebron who many ball dominant stars have struggled to fit in with. For some reason we seem to be solely faulting Westbrook for that and lumping it in with his injury recoveries.

He's been the same player the entire time with the same strengths and weaknesses. He's never been a very successful PO guy, but the notion that he should've come off the bench sooner seems to be missing the point.

Once again, we have narratives being created even though there is data that is easily accessible and free that dispels these narratives but yet people like you in many threads continue to propagate them. The Lakers found a way for LeBron and Westbrook to work together this year, but the problem was that if LeBron wasn’t on the court the Lakers had too many gaps, not enough neutral or plus players, and Westbrook by himself on court couldn’t do anything.

Lakers in 2022-2023 with Westbrook

Westbrook + LeBron ON court (all games): 114.2 ORtg, 108.2 DRtg, +6.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after 2-10 start: 117.8 ORtg, 108.7 DRtg, +9.1 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court, AD OFF court (all games): 119.8 ORtg, 111.8 DRtg, +8.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after AD’s injury in December (24 games): 118.7 ORtg, 103.9 DRtg, +14.8 NET

Westbrook ON court, LeBron and AD OFF court (all games): 106.6 ORtg, 120.6 DRtg, -14.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron + AD ON Court (all games): 113.8 ORtg, 112.0 DRtg, +1.8 NET

Westbrook + AD ON court, LeBron OFF court: 119.2 ORtg, 120.2 DRtg, -1.0 NET

These are the numbers and they go against whatever narrative you try to push in every thread

Where do you get season splits for on court points differentials? Pbbstats only seems to have a filter for the entire regular season, playoffs, and RS + PS combined.

stats.nba.com and then you have to do a bit of Algebra.

WestGOAT wrote:

homecourtloss wrote:

VanWest82 wrote:Faulty premise. Russ was good on the Rockets and Wizards in the second half of those seasons once he was recovered from knee operations. He was good as soon as he was traded to Clippers. He was good to start this season pre-Harden.

He was a bad fit on the Lakers, and specfically with Lebron who many ball dominant stars have struggled to fit in with. For some reason we seem to be solely faulting Westbrook for that and lumping it in with his injury recoveries.

He's been the same player the entire time with the same strengths and weaknesses. He's never been a very successful PO guy, but the notion that he should've come off the bench sooner seems to be missing the point.

Once again, we have narratives being created even though there is data that is easily accessible and free that dispels these narratives but yet people like you in many threads continue to propagate them. The Lakers found a way for LeBron and Westbrook to work together this year, but the problem was that if LeBron wasn’t on the court the Lakers had too many gaps, not enough neutral or plus players, and Westbrook by himself on court couldn’t do anything.

Lakers in 2022-2023 with Westbrook

Westbrook + LeBron ON court (all games): 114.2 ORtg, 108.2 DRtg, +6.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after 2-10 start: 117.8 ORtg, 108.7 DRtg, +9.1 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court, AD OFF court (all games): 119.8 ORtg, 111.8 DRtg, +8.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron ON court after AD’s injury in December (24 games): 118.7 ORtg, 103.9 DRtg, +14.8 NET

Westbrook ON court, LeBron and AD OFF court (all games): 106.6 ORtg, 120.6 DRtg, -14.0 NET

Westbrook + LeBron + AD ON Court (all games): 113.8 ORtg, 112.0 DRtg, +1.8 NET

Westbrook + AD ON court, LeBron OFF court: 119.2 ORtg, 120.2 DRtg, -1.0 NET

These are the numbers and they go against whatever narrative you try to push in every thread

Where do you get season splits for on court points differentials? Pbbstats only seems to have a filter for the entire regular season, playoffs, and RS + PS combined.

There’s an add date filter on PBP stats as well for a given calendar year(s) time frame

penbeast0 wrote:

Russell Westbrook Requests To Come Off Bench For Clippers

After the previous issues with the Rockets and Lakers, there was a lot of negativity about Westbrook's game not fitting in once he was no longer able to just dominate everyone physically. I liked his play with the Wizards and like that he seems to be trying to be a team guy as opposed to late career Iverson in Detroit for contrast.

How do you feel about his post prime career at the moment?

If you mean whether his post-Thunder career has been a positive or a negative, I'd say it's been a negative to this point.

If you mean whether Westbrook embracing a different role will be a positive thing, I think it will.

It doesn’t do much. The average person probably doesn’t even go past the top 25 when it comes to player ranks.

I don't take into account the negative aspects of a players post prime.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I think if anything it exposed what was seen as a weakness even more(mainly his bbiq/decision making criticisms). Chances are his bbiq has not declined. If anything, it almost always goes up as a player ages. So if its a major criticism of him in his 30's(along with the turnovers) then chances are it was being covered up due to athleticism and playing on talented teams in his 20's.

I dont think he lost basketball IQ per se. (Albeit there is an argument he never really advanced his understanding of basketball and grew as a playmaker past 2016~ levels)

But i definetely think he weirdly lost his shoting touch as he aged, which combined with declining athletism in an athletism driven player was a perfect storm for a ugly decline

falcolombardi wrote:

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I think if anything it exposed what was seen as a weakness even more(mainly his bbiq/decision making criticisms). Chances are his bbiq has not declined. If anything, it almost always goes up as a player ages. So if its a major criticism of him in his 30's(along with the turnovers) then chances are it was being covered up due to athleticism and playing on talented teams in his 20's.

I dont think he lost basketball IQ per se. (Albeit there is an argument he never really advanced his understanding of basketball and grew as a playmaker past 2016~ levels)

But i definetely think he weirdly lost his shoting touch as he aged, which combined with declining athletism in an athletism driven player was a perfect storm for a ugly decline

His unexpected shooting decline probably biggest part of his downfall.

Shot 84% from the FT line before and multiple years over 80% but now he is a liability.

Multiple seasons of shooting pull up jumpers at over a 40 percent rate.

If you told me 10 years ago that Rondo would be a better shooter than WB at the end of their careers I wouldn't have believed it.

falcolombardi wrote:
I dont think he lost basketball IQ per se. (Albeit there is an argument he never really advanced his understanding of basketball and grew as a playmaker past 2016~ levels)

But i definetely think he weirdly lost his shoting touch as he aged, which combined with declining athletism in an athletism driven player was a perfect storm for a ugly decline

Not saying he lost bbiq but that a loss of athleticism has exposed it more as a weakness.