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Thought of this randomly, question is as prompted in the subject line / poll title. Feel like Bill and Messi are the very clear answers here, but am curious if anybody has either of the other two above. The actual question is harder for me itself, as I feel both Ronaldo and Wilt aren’t really strong Mt Rushmore candidates but are for sure Tier 2 or so all time greats.

I think this is more or less a coin flip. Many out there would even say that Ronaldo had the better career due to more team accomplishments and Wilt also has the edge on Russ. So the gaps are pretty slim to begin with. No real right/wrong answer as I think all 4 guys have strong arguments as top 6-7 all time in their respective sports.

Russell and Wilt is a bigger gap in careers because that's largely driven by accomplishments.

In terms of peak play, definitely Messi and Ronaldo. Messi is clearly better than Ronaldo by a much larger margin that Russell is better than Wilt.

Hard to compare, Messi will become a consensus GOAT in 10-15 years from now (once people won't get emotional while discussing such issues because he'll be 50 or so) - Russell was the one, but in different moment of his discipline and its development. So historically, the difference between Messi and Ronaldo is bigger in my eyes than between Russell and Wilt.

Djoker wrote:Russell and Wilt is a bigger gap in careers because that's largely driven by accomplishments.

In terms of peak play, definitely Messi and Ronaldo. Messi is clearly better than Ronaldo by a much larger margin that Russell is better than Wilt.

How about prime, like a decade or so sample for example?

In published lists (primarily books and mags but I've included Rosen's, ESPN's composite rankings and the AP Player of the Century poll) it goes 12-7 in favor of Chamberlain in terms of who is ranked higher between him and Russell.

Remove the aforementioned internet/AP rankings and it's 10-6.

I always have believed that Wilt was far better at basketball than Russell, and that would irritate Russell and the Boston media.


If you ask yourself, “Imagine Wilt with Russell’s Celtics teams, then how much would they have won?”

Or more revealing, “Put Russell on Wilt’s teams, how many titles would they have won?”

In the 1965 -1966 season in 9 regular season H2H between the two

Here are their averages.

Russell: 9.4 ppg, 21.2 rpg, 4.9 APG, .30.1 FG%

Wilt: 28.3 ppg, 30.7 rpg, 4.1 APG 47.3 FG%

Imagine a player outscoring another player by almost 20PPG and outrebounding him plus outblocking him while being much more efficient and people saying that player is better because of rings duh.

Furthermore

The overall data showed this:

PTS: Wilt: 43-6 (Wilt had more points than BR in 43 games vs. 6 games for Russ.)

REB: Wilt: 32-18 (1 tie)

AST: BR: 27-15 (7 ties)

TS%: Wilt: 32-17

I figured out Russ/Wilt’s teammates’ data by subtracting Russ/Wilt’s stats from team stats.

PTS: BR's teammates: 40-9 (BR teammates had more points than Wilt's in 40 of those games, vs. 9 for Wilt's mates.)

REB: BR teammates, 33-15 (1 tie)

AST: BR teammates: 28-16-5

TS%: BR teammates, 26-23

Also, finally, we know that Wilt and Russell played H2H in 8 PO series.

But who led in each category:

PTS: 8-0 Wilt

REB: 8-0 Wilt

AST: 6-2 Russell

TS%: 8-0 Wilt

Teammates:

PTS: 8-0 Russell's teammates

REB: 7-1 Russell's

AST: 5-3 Russell's

TS%: 5-3 Russell's

Therefore we see with the data that Wilt bested Russ in 26 of 32 (81%) categories over 8 PO series.

And that Russ's 11 teammates bested Wilt's 11 teammates in 25 of 32 (78%)categories over 8 PO series



Furthermore Russell himself said in an interview in the 1960s, "Wilt can do my job better than I can do Wilt's."

And that's a fact.

Not seen the present state of lists for football/soccer/calcio. And online might be different from the handful of lists I collated around a decade ago (maybe?).

But my impression is football lists are more "gut", sentiment, less evidence based than some basketball ones now are. And it would perhaps be hard not to. It's hard enough comparing across NBA's 50's to 2020's in a league of the same lineage with different data. And if say a notion like CORP is tricky across different size leagues at least there's language to talk about what we mean.

But how would one compare across different leagues in different times in different positions with very little numerical data beyond perhaps games and goals for older players.

It seems to tilt very heavily towards attacking players, which, idk ... the transfer market tilts the same way I guess ...

With modern peers that wouldn't (necessarily) stop a measurement of the absolute gap (if you like the state of football analytics for Ronaldo and Messi's careers) but would make an all-time measure like the gap in rankings or Rushmore quite difficult.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I think this is more or less a coin flip. Many out there would even say that Ronaldo had the better career due to more team accomplishments and Wilt also has the edge on Russ. So the gaps are pretty slim to begin with. No real right/wrong answer as I think all 4 guys have strong arguments as top 6-7 all time in their respective sports.

How does he have more team accomplishments?

Cavsfansince84 wrote:I think this is more or less a coin flip. Many out there would even say that Ronaldo had the better career due to more team accomplishments and Wilt also has the edge on Russ. So the gaps are pretty slim to begin with. No real right/wrong answer as I think all 4 guys have strong arguments as top 6-7 all time in their respective sports.

Wilt has an edge of Russell in team accomplishments?

And with all due respect, when you have a player whom the offense is built around v. one who is a 4th option, the guy who the offense is built around will of course have bigger stats and his teammates correspondingly smaller ones. This even affects TS% and reb%, when you have a big in the pre-3 point era setting up every time in the post, his teammates are taking more outside (lower percentage) shots v. more slashing and post scoring (higher percentage and closer to the basket for rebounds) when the big is a high post passing hub. What matters is how that translates into wins.

Russell's defense probably also affected Wilt's teammates more than Wilt's defense affected Russell's teammates (ie, help defense).

Oh boy, this is gonna be good. Where have I put my reading glasses?

I have a slightly bigger difference for Messi/Ronaldo.

If it was possible to quantify who was better than who the gap between messi and everyone else would clear any gap within the top 5 for basketball lol

penbeast0 wrote:
Wilt has an edge of Russell in team accomplishments?

And with all due respect, when you have a player whom the offense is built around v. one who is a 4th option, the guy who the offense is built around will of course have bigger stats and his teammates correspondingly smaller ones. This even affects TS% and reb%, when you have a big in the pre-3 point era setting up every time in the post, his teammates are taking more outside (lower percentage) shots v. more slashing and post scoring (higher percentage and closer to the basket for rebounds) when the big is a high post passing hub. What matters is how that translates into wins.

Russell's defense probably also affected Wilt's teammates more than Wilt's defense affected Russell's teammates (ie, help defense).

No. I'm saying some have Wilt ahead of Russell and Ronaldo ahead of Messi(based on team accomplishments). With Wilt its more obviously based on his individual stuff.

rk2023 wrote:

Djoker wrote:Russell and Wilt is a bigger gap in careers because that's largely driven by accomplishments.

In terms of peak play, definitely Messi and Ronaldo. Messi is clearly better than Ronaldo by a much larger margin that Russell is better than Wilt.

How about prime, like a decade or so sample for example?

Prime too I'd go with Messi and Ronaldo. The gap between them from say 2009-2019 is bigger in favour of Messi than than the gap between Russell and Wilt from say 1960-1969 is in favor of Russell.

Peak - Messi, no contest
Career- Messi, no contest
Accolades- Russell
Wilt was better individual player, but less accolades. Messi is much better everywhere, it's not even funny to compare.
CR only could rack up stats as old man for coping and his ego. Like Bron. James at least was many
years best player in the world. Ronaldo - never, because Messi exist.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:If it was possible to quantify who was better than who the gap between messi and everyone else would clear any gap within the top 5 for basketball lol

No. Not even close, rofl. Soccer gaps are vastly smaller than basketball ones. Messi being covered as an undisputable goat is more about the bias(or lackthereof) in covering modern players in soccer. His argument for GOAT is among the weaker ones across major sports, and the gulf between him and his contemporaries is massively overblown because of a lack of concerete data.


Messi hype is what happens when a sport is modernist in coverage, a player plays in a way everyone finds aesthetically pleasing, and it is very difficult to quanitfy things beyond the box score.

Messi only significantly contributes to one side of the field and he does not control the proceedings there in a manner comparable to top basketball helios which all reflects in Messi being unable to grantee consistent team-success despite having a career full of very good supporting casts.

He is no reason to assume he approaches having the gap Lebron holds historically vs any player in modern history, let alone what Russell holds as someone who effectively garunteed titles. Ronaldo being closer than their contemporaries is just common sense.

Gregoire wrote:Peak - Messi, no contest
Career- Messi, no contest
Accolades- Russell
Wilt was better individual player, but less accolades. Messi is much better everywhere, it's not even funny to compare.
CR only could rack up stats as old man for coping and his ego. Like Bron. James at least was many
years best player in the world. Ronaldo - never, because Messi exist.

Discount Lebron did not peak higher than the man who effectively beat the 2nd and 3rd best team in the league combined as a retiree lmao