One Day Poll, Better NBA Career: Dwight Howard or Paul Pierce?

[Doctor MJ]

Looking to the Board to decide something for the Top 100 project.

Intending to check this tomorrow morning to see the winner.

[WintaSoldier1]

Dwight!

[penbeast0]

Before the pace and space revolution, Howard was the more valuable player, but the change in the game hurt Howard more than most and his attitude toward his diminished value wasn't always good.

Pierce maintained his value for a lot longer than Howard, though Howard peaked higher. And he had to play with Antoine Walker so he gets a bit of a sympathy vote (kidding, for you Toine fans).

Vote: Paul Pierce

[MiamiBulls]

Paul Pierce.

Pierce had roughly 5 to 6 All NBA caliber
Seasons. With 13-14 Seasons of at minimum All Star Level Seasons.

Dwight post 2012 was a marginally positive Offensive player. A role player post 2014, mainly due to mounting injuries: 2012, Herniated Disk with nerve issues in back & leg, 2013 recovering from back injury, tore his labrum. 2014 knee injury which requiring bone marrow injection & eventually tear his knee ligaments.

Ultimately Dwight Howard was done as High or Fringe MVP/All NBA level player due to his back injury in 2012 & for an athleticism based player with low basketball IQ like Dwight it's extremely problematic.

Dwight Howard in Oct. 2015 -
"I had surgery on the left side of my back, but that was almost three years ago. There is tightness in my right lower back. Anybody that knows about sports and playing a lot of basketball, you use your hips and legs a lot, and unfortunately for me, I use mine more than most people.

Just my hips and everything got tight from doing a lot of work and working out all summer, and it's different than training camp work. So my body just reacted to it. It's not anything structurally wrong with my back"

[eminence]

I'd give Dwight a notably better than role player grade for '15 (either 2nd or 3rd on a Conference finalist), but I also voted Pierce here mainly due to a fairly notable longevity edge.

[SHAQ32]

I'm pretty high on Pierce compared to most, but with those seasons between the conference finals run in 2002 and the big 3 in 2008 in mind, you have to take Howard. I can't see Dwight, regardless of cast, missing the playoffs in his prime in consecutive seasons. And those were the years in which the east wasn't very strong.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm pretty high on Pierce compared to most, but with those seasons between the conference finals run in 2002 and the big 3 in 2008 in mind, you have to take Howard. I can't see Dwight, regardless of cast, missing the playoffs in his prime in consecutive seasons. And those were the years in which the east wasn't very strong.

So, just so we're clear here, you're referring to the 2 years where the Celtics missed the playoffs when Pierce was ages 28 & 29 respectively.

Howard was in Houston in those years. At age 28 he had his last all-star appearance. I doubt you believe that Howard couldn't possibly miss the playoffs in those years.

Now, Howard came straight out of high school and so it makes sense for his prime to possibly be shifted earlier, and I'm not looking to say that peak Pierce was better than Howard...but I think there is something that should give you pause about holding Pierce's age 28 & 29 seasons against him in a comparison with Howard.

[Cavsfansince84]

Pierce's 30+ years were way more productive and also showed he could accept a lesser role to win which is sort of the opposite of what Dwight did after the age of 26 outside of his second LAL years where he was more a solid role player compared to Pierce being a #2 on teams that prob should have won at least two titles if not for the injury to KG. I probably have Pierce about 15 spots higher.

[SHAQ32]

I'm pretty high on Pierce compared to most, but with those seasons between the conference finals run in 2002 and the big 3 in 2008 in mind, you have to take Howard. I can't see Dwight, regardless of cast, missing the playoffs in his prime in consecutive seasons. And those were the years in which the east wasn't very strong.

So, just so we're clear here, you're referring to the 2 years where the Celtics missed the playoffs when Pierce was ages 28 & 29 respectively.

Howard was in Houston in those years. At age 28 he had his last all-star appearance. I doubt you believe that Howard couldn't possibly miss the playoffs in those years.

I'm referring to seasons 8 & 9. So, last year, Dwightmare season, in Orlando and first year with Lakers.

But if his role on the team were to be as it was before Dwightmare, as if nothing ever happened, for seasons 8 & 9, then yes, I couldn't possibly see him and his team missing the playoffs.

Even first two years in Houston, if he was still the focal point of the team, then I could see him leading just about anybody to an 8th seed, at least. Although he was injured that second year, he was a monster in the playoffs.

[iggymcfrack]

If we’re talking about winning, Pierce was clearly superior as long as you don’t parse things down to a ridiculously fine level like “missing playoffs consecutive years between ages 28 and 29".

Pierce (reg season)
NetRtg: +3.5
On bench: -3.0
On/off: +6.5

Howard (reg season)
NetRtg: +3.6
On bench: -0.3
On/off: +3.9

Pierce (postseason)
NetRtg: +1.2
Bench: +1.1
On/off: +0.1

Howard (postseason)
NetRtg: -1.0
Bench: +3.5
On/off: -4.5

26 year RAPM
Pierce: +5.0 (23rd)
Howard: +2.5 (120th)

Pierce played over 6K more minutes in the regular season and 2300 more minutes in the postseason so theoretically his extra minutes in decline years could hurt him in this comparison, but even with the extra longevity his career averages come out on top.

[HeartBreakKid]

Dwight Howard was another caliber of player. Dwight has like 5 seasons better than any of Paul's, and better by a substantial amount even if Dwight didn't do much outside of those seasons. Pierec and Howard's primes actually overlapped, and Pierce almost felt like a roleplayer in comparison to Howard.


I'm rather competitive, I'd rather be the best possible and in league with the best in the world even if my career is shortened.


People love to tear down players weaknesses when their strengths are a lot more telling of what they are. Dwight Howard is a player that contending teams had to consider changing their roster to prepare for, and he had a ton of gravity despite not being able to shoot for his life. Paul Pierce was just a very good player for a long time.

[iggymcfrack]

Dwight Howard was another caliber of player. Dwight has like 5 seasons better than any of Paul's, and better by a substantial amount even if Dwight didn't do much outside of those seasons. Pierec and Howard's primes actually overlapped, and Pierce almost felt like a roleplayer in comparison to Howard.


I'm rather competitive, I'd rather be the best possible and in league with the best in the world even if my career is shortened.


People love to tear down players weaknesses when their strengths are a lot more telling of what they are. Dwight Howard is a player that contending teams had to consider changing their roster to prepare for, and he had a ton of gravity despite not being able to shoot for his life. Paul Pierce was just a very good player for a long time.

This is so clearly wrong.

-Pierce had a better BPM in 2002 than Dwight ever had any season in his career.
-Pierce had a better postseason BPM in 2005 than Dwight ever had any season in his career.
-Pierce had a better on/off in 2000, 2002, 2003, 2008, and 2011 than Dwight ever had any season in his career.
-Pierce had a better postseason on/off in 2002 and 2017 than Dwight had any season in his career.

If you wanna say that when you consider all the different factors, Dwight peaked slightly higher from 2009-2011 than Pierce ever did, I won't argue with you, but it's still very close to Pierce's peak. Trying to put 5 years ahead of Pierce is indefensible and absurd. 2008 is probably Dwight's 4th best season and Pierce has fourteen seasons that beat it by BPM. I can't even imagine what other season you'd try to put ahead of even an average Pierce year.

[McBubbles]

Dwight for peak, Pierce with a substantial longevity edge, so Pierce.

[McBubbles]

Before the pace and space revolution, Howard was the more valuable player, but the change in the game hurt Howard more than most and his attitude toward his diminished value wasn't always good.

Pierce maintained his value for a lot longer than Howard, though Howard peaked higher. And he had to play with Antoine Walker so he gets a bit of a sympathy vote (kidding, for you Toine fans).

Vote: Paul Pierce

I think this is overstated. I always see people say that he just couldn't keep up with the game or whatever, but Rudy Gobert has been an MVP caliber player in the 2020's and there's no reason to think Dwight is incapable of replicating anything Gobert can do.

The main thing that Dwight couldn't keep was his back. His back injury was absolutely devastating and the fact that no one mentions this when talking about his decline is rather upsetting.

Dwight's BBIQ, which gave him a horrible assist: turnover ratio and made him post up too often was always a problem, but it wasn't exacerbated with the pace and space era.

[xinxin]

I’m a fan of Dwayne Wade..

& since Pierce said he’s better than DWade, then Paul Pierce it is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[penbeast0]

Before the pace and space revolution, Howard was the more valuable player, but the change in the game hurt Howard more than most and his attitude toward his diminished value wasn't always good.

Pierce maintained his value for a lot longer than Howard, though Howard peaked higher. And he had to play with Antoine Walker so he gets a bit of a sympathy vote (kidding, for you Toine fans).

Vote: Paul Pierce

I think this is overstated. I always see people say that he just couldn't keep up with the game or whatever, but Rudy Gobert has been an MVP caliber player in the 2020's and there's no reason to think Dwight is incapable of replicating anything Gobert can do.

The main thing that Dwight couldn't keep was his back. His back injury was absolutely devastating and the fact that no one mentions this when talking about his decline is rather upsetting.

Dwight's BBIQ, which gave him a horrible assist: turnover ratio and made him post up too often was always a problem, but it wasn't exacerbated with the pace and space era.

What was the date of the back injury?

[HeartBreakKid]

Dwight Howard was another caliber of player. Dwight has like 5 seasons better than any of Paul's, and better by a substantial amount even if Dwight didn't do much outside of those seasons. Pierec and Howard's primes actually overlapped, and Pierce almost felt like a roleplayer in comparison to Howard.


I'm rather competitive, I'd rather be the best possible and in league with the best in the world even if my career is shortened.


People love to tear down players weaknesses when their strengths are a lot more telling of what they are. Dwight Howard is a player that contending teams had to consider changing their roster to prepare for, and he had a ton of gravity despite not being able to shoot for his life. Paul Pierce was just a very good player for a long time.

This is so clearly wrong.

-Pierce had a better BPM in 2002 than Dwight ever had any season in his career.
-Pierce had a better postseason BPM in 2005 than Dwight ever had any season in his career.
-Pierce had a better on/off in 2000, 2002, 2003, 2008, and 2011 than Dwight ever had any season in his career.
-Pierce had a better postseason on/off in 2002 and 2017 than Dwight had any season in his career.

If you wanna say that when you consider all the different factors, Dwight peaked slightly higher from 2009-2011 than Pierce ever did, I won't argue with you, but it's still very close to Pierce's peak. Trying to put 5 years ahead of Pierce is indefensible and absurd. 2008 is probably Dwight's 4th best season and Pierce has fourteen seasons that beat it by BPM. I can't even imagine what other season you'd try to put ahead of even an average Pierce year.

Having a higher BPM doesn't mean he is better or that they are close. That isn't what BPM means.

[OhayoKD]

I’m a fan of Dwayne Wade..

& since Pierce said he’s better than DWade, then Paul Pierce it is.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

All of the realm said it actually

[Bergmaniac]

Before the pace and space revolution, Howard was the more valuable player, but the change in the game hurt Howard more than most and his attitude toward his diminished value wasn't always good.

Pierce maintained his value for a lot longer than Howard, though Howard peaked higher. And he had to play with Antoine Walker so he gets a bit of a sympathy vote (kidding, for you Toine fans).

Vote: Paul Pierce

I think this is overstated. I always see people say that he just couldn't keep up with the game or whatever, but Rudy Gobert has been an MVP caliber player in the 2020's and there's no reason to think Dwight is incapable of replicating anything Gobert can do.

The main thing that Dwight couldn't keep was his back. His back injury was absolutely devastating and the fact that no one mentions this when talking about his decline is rather upsetting.

Dwight's BBIQ, which gave him a horrible assist: turnover ratio and made him post up too often was always a problem, but it wasn't exacerbated with the pace and space era.

What was the date of the back injury?

Towards the end of the 2011/2012 season, he had a herniated disk and had surgery for it in April 2012 and was never the same athleically after this.

[Doctor MJ]

Okay, I'm calling it.

Final poll: Pierce 27, Howard 22.