Non-NBA GOAT Lists (5 deep)

[penbeast0]

Who are your GOATS for non-NBA competition? Use your own criteria and only answer to the degree you feel comfortable with having an opinion (I wouldn't even try to judge Euroleague with my level of ignorance). To keep it apples to apples to some degree I will limit it to 3 categories:

GOAT NCAA PLAYER:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

GOAT Euroleague(s) Player:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

GOAT Olympic Player:
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.

[SeattleJazzFan]

Just going with guys I've seen - so basically since about the mid-80s

GOAT NCAA PLAYER:
1. Zion
2. Akeem Olajuwon
3. Glen Rice
4. Patrick Ewing
5. Hersey Hawkins

GOAT Euroleague(s) Player:
1. Mirsad Turkcan
2. Dejan Tomasevic
3. Luka Doncic
4. Alphonso Ford
5. Anthony Parker

GOAT Olympic Player:
1. LeBron James
2. Michael Jordan
3. Oscar Schmidt
4. Carmelo Anthony
5. Chuck Barkley

[eminence]

NCAA is the only one I could begin to comment on, there I'd go with:

1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Walton
3. Bill Russell
4. Oscar Robertson
5. Larry Bird

HMs - Tom Gola, Wilt Chamberlain (only 2 seasons), Jerry Lucas, Elvin Hayes, David Thompson, Ralph Sampson

Tyler Hansbrough as the modern GOAT, and probably deserving of an HM, but competition much slimmer. Apologies if I forgot anyone - Maravich/Laettner/MJx2 all intentionally excluded.

[AEnigma]

NCAA
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Walton
3. Bill Russell
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Patrick Ewing Larry Bird

Admittedly there is some post-hoc information at play; if someone thinks Danny Manning or Christian Laettner accomplished more than Ewing and Hakeem, I will not dispute it… but they also accomplished more than Tim Duncan, and I feel very strongly that Duncan was a better college player than both. I am more mixed on Duncan versus Ewing and Hakeem for NCAA ability (if this were about flat impact, I might slot him in at #3 on this list), but Ewing and Hakeem left a much greater legacy, and unlike NCAA icons like Oscar Robertson or Ralph Sampson, their teams never managed to recreate their success without them.

Best non-big is a tough call, although Larry Bird does feel like a fair enough starting point.

[eminence]

NCAA
1. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2. Bill Walton
3. Bill Russell
4. Hakeem Olajuwon
5. Patrick Ewing

Admittedly there is some post-hoc information at play; if someone thinks Danny Manning or Christian Laettner accomplished more than Ewing and Hakeem, I will not dispute it… but they also accomplished more than Tim Duncan, and I feel very strongly that Duncan was a better college player than both. I am more mixed on Duncan versus Ewing and Hakeem for NCAA ability (if this were about flat impact, I might slot him in at #3 on this list), but Ewing and Hakeem left a much greater legacy, and unlike NCAA icons like Oscar Robertson or Ralph Sampson, their teams never managed to recreate their success without them.

Best non-big is a tough call.

I get bumping Hakeem up for that and holding it against Oscar, but to me Sampson and Ewing would be in the opposite camps you've put them in (I get the argument for '84 Virginia, but to me that seems like a one-off run). And Georgetown was obviously lesser, but still solid once Ewing left.

[AEnigma]

I am wariest about Ewing for sure. But Georgetown has four national finals in its history (1943) and five national semifinals (2007). Basically its entire real relevance as a programme is isolated to Ewing’s tenure there, and that is with an all-time (imo top fifteen) coach in the sport. And while we can debate exactly how good Ewing himself was (would he have done better in Sampson’s place, hey, maybe not), his resume is not so different from someone like Danny Manning’s that I will not at least factor in his status within the programme itself or what he showed he could do outside of the NCAA.

[eminence]

A rough look at the above concept (team quality with and without said player).

I took average team SRS when the player was there (ranging from 2-4 years) minus average team SRS in the 4 surrounding years (2 in each direction).

Just some famous names included (all 2+ years).

1. Jerry Lucas +15.8
2. Wilt Chamberlain +12.1
3. Magic Johnson +12.0
4. Larry Bird +11.8
5. David Thompson 11.8
6. Hakeem Olajuwon +11.3
7. Elvin Hayes +11.0
8. Pete Maravich +9.8
9. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar +8.6
10. Bill Walton +8.6
11. Tom Gola +8.5
12. Oscar Robertson +8.0
13. Bill Russell +7.4
14. Ralph Sampson +7.1
15. Patrick Ewing +4.4
16. Tyler Hansbrough +4.4
17. Michael Jordan +3.3
18. Christian Laettner +2.6
19. Danny Manning +1.8

Edit: Not something I'd ever really looked at before (I don't follow college basketball that closely). Some thoughts - Jerry Lucas might deserve a bit more love, I always saw Ohio State and kind of assumed. Wilt/Magic have the problem of only being 2 year guys (this kinda dings Hakeem for me as well, as his 1st year doesn't really rate at this level). I'll stand by no Maravich top 10, as his is the most extreme case of team going from absolutely terrible to just decent (Bird has this but to a lesser degree). Russell brought down by an underwhelming 1st year. KAJ/Waltons +8.6 are more impressive than 1st glance because of how ridiculously high the baseline was during the Wooden dynasty.

[rk2023]

More traditional NCAA:

1. Kareem
2. Russell / Walton
4. Oscar
5. Ewing

HMs: Sampson, Lucas, D. Thompson, Bill Bradley, West, Bird

“One and done” / more modern NCAA:

1. Zion
2. Davis
3. Durant
4. Anthony

[AEnigma]

Great idea and work, Eminence. I personally would want to factor tournament performance to an extent, but that is a fair base level indicator of player “value”.

Eyeballing it, Tim Duncan would slot in at #15 on that list.

So in general I will stand by my top four. 2+ titles plus Hakeem going semifinalist -> runner-up and MOP -> runner-up (no Drexler) seems reasonable. For the fifth spot, maybe Bird should be the pick after all. Although I am impressed by Thompson, and he has the MOP on his résumé too.

On the Lucas note: I think it is important to mention that his mark is a product of his addition and exit as well as John Havlicek’s. Lucas was the star, but again, tough to look at what happened in the NBA and not conclude Havlicek was likely a large part of Ohio State’s success.

[Rishkar]

I only ever followed NCAA to watch Jimmer Fredette, so I don't think I'm qualified to answer this at all. How much better were these top guys than Jimmer?

[Colbinii]

I only ever followed NCAA to watch Jimmer Fredette, so I don't think I'm qualified to answer this at all. How much better were these top guys than Jimmer?

It is hard to qualify, but Jimmer is one of the best college "high usage" guards ever. But, when you compare him to say Lillard, who would never be in the conversation, there isn't a major gap between the two.

Zion, for example, was significantly better on a per-play basis when at Duke.

Zion posted a 20.1 BPM, 133/87 Ortg/Drtg splits [Think Per-100 Ortg/Drtg, not on-court], 41 PER, .335 WS/48 on 29% USG%

Jimmer put up 10.8 BPM, 118/100 Ortg/Drtg splits, 31 PER, .256 WS/48 on 38% USG%

We have incomplete stats for older players, but a small look into Tim Duncan posts him at .367 WS/48 and 70% FTR [Zion was at 40%].

Oscar Robertson averaged an estimated 34/7/15 while in college

[eminence]

Good shoutout on Hondo.

Ran a bunch of more guys through quick (72 total, but not a lot of rhyme or reason, just a bunch of guys I could think of who were great and whose names I knew how to spell), some highlights.

#1 guy I've found, Bob Pettit at +18.3, wowsers was LSU bad in the years around that.

Other guys who cracked +15: Artis Gilmore and David Robinson.

Hank Gathers had a +13.9 at Loyala, #5 overall.

Dwyane Wade +10.0, Steph at +9.9.

Big ups to Battier for being the rock with a +8.7 at Duke those years.

Jimmer at +6.0.

Bill Bradley somewhat shockingly at -0.4.

Oof, Evan Turner with a -6.6 (JJ Redick the only other negative at -2.8).

[AEnigma]

For NCAA 1-year players, from a legacy standpoint, I think it needs to be:

1. Anthony Davis
2. Carmelo Anthony
3. Zion Williamson
… and then Durant and Oden to round out the top five of season definers.

[Colbinii]

For NCAA 1-year players, from a legacy standpoint, I think it needs to be:

1. Anthony Davis
2. Carmelo Anthony
3. Zion Williamson
… and then Durant and Oden to round out the top five of season definers.

The disrespect to Shaedon Sharpe.

[rk2023]

For NCAA 1-year players, from a legacy standpoint, I think it needs to be:

1. Anthony Davis
2. Carmelo Anthony
3. Zion Williamson
… and then Durant and Oden to round out the top five of season definers.

The disrespect to Shaedon Sharpe.

Give me LSU Ben Simmons

[eminence]

Side note, this little mini dive into lists along the lines of 'best players not to play in the NBA' has reminded me how inflated streetballers reputations are.

I promise you, Pee Wee Kirkland is not the 2nd best player never to play in the NBA: https://nsuspartans.com/documents/2014/4/10/1967-68.pdf?id=1434

Yes, that Bob Dandridge.

[penbeast0]

3rd on this list, well above Julius Erving . . .

https://www.redbull.com/us-en/top-streetball-players-ever

[eminence]

3rd on this list, well above Julius Erving . . .

https://www.redbull.com/us-en/top-streetball-players-ever

I'm fine enough with it on streetball exclusive lists, it's a whole different thing. But when talking about could've been pros, no chance they're over Gathers, Bias, Kurland, Haynes, the pre-Sabonis Soviet bigs, etc.

I didn't mean to particularly single out Kirkland, it holds true for all of the streetballers.

[pancakes3]

NCAA is really tough and 5 deep makes it all the tougher.

Top 5:
Bill Russell, 2x National Champ out of USF and insane numbers (career 20/20 guy)
Christian Laettner, 2x National Champ, Tourney MOP, AP POY/Rupp/Wooden/Naismith
Larry Bird, National Champ, Wooden/Naismith/Rupp winner, career 30/13/4.6
KAJ - 3x National Champ, 2x AP POY, Naismith Award, 3x MOP
Walton - 2x National Champ, 2x AP POY, 3x Naismith, 3x Rupp, 2x MOP

Next Tier:
Bobby Hurley, 2x National Champ, career average of 7.7 apg, career .400 shooter from 3 at 4.7 3pa/game, tourney MOP
Anthony Davis, National Champ, AP POY/Wooden, Naismith, Rupp, MOP
Carmelo Anthony, National Champ, Tourney MOP, 22/10/2.2 as a freshman
David Robinson, Wooden/Naismith/Rupp/AP POY
Patrick Ewing - National Champ AP POY, Naismith, Rupp award, MOP
Glen Rice - National Champ, MOP
Jerry Lucas, National champ, 2x AP POY, 2x MOP
Ralph Sampson, 3x AP POY, 3x Naismith award winner, 3x ACC POY, 3x Rupp trophy, 2x Wooden award
Tim Duncan, 1x AP POY/Rupp/Wooden/Naismith, 2x ACC POY
Blake Griffin, AP POY Wooden, Naismith, Rupp

Best of the Rest:
Gary Payton, career average of 18/7.8, peak of 25.7/8.1 and 3.4 spg, made tourney 3/4 years.
Wes Unseld, made Tourney 2/3 seasons. Career 20/19
Rick Barry, put up 37ppg as a senior, Miami finished 2nd, 2nd, and 1st in ppg, no other NBA players on Miami roster during 3 years
Kemba Walker, National Champ
Tyler Hansborough, National Champ, Career 20/8.6, Wooden/Naismith/Rupp winner.
JJ Reddick, Career 20ppg scorer over 4 years, 2x ACC POY, 2x Rupp, 1x Wooden/Naismith
Steve Alford, National Champ, career 19.5ppg
Rip Hamilton, National Champ, tourney MOP, career 19.8ppg
Ed Obannon, Wooden award, Tourney MOP, National Champ
Kevin Love
Michael Beasely
Zion
Steph
Jimmer
Maravich

[Wallace_Wallace]

By postisons? Or Just in general?

GOAT NCAA PLAYER:
1. KAJ
2. Bill Walton
3. Larry Bird
4. JJ Redick
5. Magic Johnson

*Honorable mention to Bobby Joe Hill due to his sheer importance to NCAAB

GOAT Euroleague(s) Player....sorry don't know enough

GOAT Olympic Player:
1. Ginobili
2. Bryant
3. Carmelo
4.
5.