RealGM

Posted: **Sun Dec 3, 2023 6:46 pm**

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. Nomination vote now works the same way.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:

Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Jimmy Butler

Joel Embiid

Draymond Green

Bob Lanier

Gary Payton

As requested, here's the current list so far along with the historical spreadsheet of previous projects:

Current List
Historical Spreadsheet

Posted: **Sun Dec 3, 2023 6:54 pm**

Vote: Jimmy Butler: Two way player with strong playoff performances and leadership. Has had some run-ins with other players but they seem to be about the other players not putting in the work or defense.

[i]Alt: Joel Embiid Best of the bigs on both ends and in a tougher era.

Nominate: Bobby Jones. More than a decade of straight 1st team All-Defense votes combined with high efficiency, though not high volume scoring, and good playmaking. Not a great rebounder for his position but could play 2-5 at either end. Probably the greatest glue guy in NBA history and in his time where he was the best player on his team (75 and 76 for example), his team was the best in the league both years though they came up short in the playoffs. The most 1st team All-Defense awards, best player on two Nugget teams that had the best record in the NBA (though both came up short in the playoffs), great efficiency without being just an inside scorer, excellent passer, decent offensive rebounder, defensively good at blocking out rather than getting the board, good shot blocker for a forward, good steals, could play up to the 5 or down to the 2, limited minutes because of a physical condition but probably the greatest glue guy in the history of the NBA.

Alt: Pau Gasol: Even without international play, taking the Lakers to those titles with Kobe is impressive and a strong #2 which I prefer to a bad #1.

Posted: **Sun Dec 3, 2023 6:56 pm**

WintaSoldier1 wrote:Adding you as a voter Winta. Keep up the thoughtful posts!

Posted: **Sun Dec 3, 2023 7:08 pm**

Vote- jimmy buttler

Has showed best player on a contender capacity since his last year with chicago. Good intangibles if a bit marred by how he behaved in minny, decent star lomgevity at this point, good durability

His game has also became fairly resilient in the playoffs which is somethingh i value highly

Alt vote- draymond green
A huge impact player for a fairly solid amount of time Somewhat questionable fit in many team constructions due to offensive limitations as a scorer and not being a off ball threat and a tendency for boneheadedness limits him as a guy you build around
but he is one of the best second options to have due to his impact without needing the ball

Nomination: ray allen, one of the best offensive players to not yet make this list, long career, arguabyl good enough to be the 1st option offensively of a championship team and a fairly portable player into teams with other strong offensive guys

Alt nom: nate thurmond for being an all time great defensive player. Not too sure how to weight him vs the likes of gobert, wallace or mutombo so i will go with him for now

Posted: **Sun Dec 3, 2023 7:28 pm**

VOTE: Bob Lanier
NOMINATE: Dave Cowens
AltNom: Ray Allen Nate Thurmond

AEnigma wrote:Linked a comprehensive case for Bob Lanier featuring production, impact analysis, contemporary accounts, and a long highlights video courtesy of 70sFan. I am happy to see him receive support and attention here.

I continue to be confused by the lack of support for Cowens. We have seen titles for Barry and Gilmore give them a relatively secure standing, and I think it is difficult to argue against Cowens as the top player on the 1976 Celtics even if people are split on him versus Havlicek in 1974. His impact is clear, consistently showcasing twenty-win lift on a Celtics team that otherwise looked mediocre (when contending) to bad (when not) without Cowens. And he is very much a sort of precursor to Draymond, nominated several rounds ago, in how he was a somewhat undersized defensive anchor frequently taking a lead playmaking role to make use of his team’s strong off-ball wings.

Posted: **Sun Dec 3, 2023 7:39 pm**

INDUCTION VOTE: Gary Payton (Finally!)
While Gary Payton wasn't a good shooter, he was elite among PG's at getting to the rim, and fairly elite at finishing there [for a PG]. Could work in the post, too, fwiw. Consequently he does have a positive TS Add in 10 of 17 seasons (and a very modest + TS Add for his career). He was positive in almost all of his high usage seasons, peaking at a reasonably solid +62.5 (five seasons >+30). He did this while being the principle playmaker for the team and having a solid/good turnover economy.

The Seattle offense really took off once Payton became the co-primary creator for the offense [on a "by committee" type team in '93], improved more with his increased usage in '94, and hit its peak after he began taking on BIG offensive load ['95 and after].
Below are the Sonics rORTG by year (and Payton's offensive on/off for teams '97 and later):

'93: +4.3
'94: +4.8
'95: +6.5
'96: +2.7
'97: +4.5 (+5.7 offensive on/off [best on team]; was +15.5 in playoffs)
'98: +6.6 (+6.3 offensive on/off [2nd on team (Detlef)]; was +22.4 in playoffs)
'99: +2.8 (+11.6 offensive on/off [best on team])
'00: +1.5 (+10.1 offensive on/off [best on team]
'01: +2.6 (-0.5 offensive on/off)
'02: +4.4 (+1.7 offensive on/off)

So despite criticisms he'll sustain about not being a good shooter, or not being a Nash-level playmaker, that is a solid decade where they were never worse than +1.5 [ranked 9th of 29], and averaged a +4.1 rORTG, while Gary Payton was at least co-anchor, if not THE anchor of the offense. And he was generally a solid positive within those excellent offenses (frequently the highest offensive on/off on the team).

Here are a few of his ORAPM's (and league rank):

'97 (NPI): +2.70 [17th]
'98: +3.65 [10th]
'99: +3.74 [11th]
'00: +5.45 [4th]

And while his defensive consistency is certainly overrated/stated by his accolades, he was, at his best, one of the best perimeter defenders in the game.
His best 5-years RAPM added are similar to that of recent inductees Paul Pierce and Dwight Howard (while playing more minutes than either of them within those five years).

And he was good/useful for an awfully long time: 17 seasons, rarely injured, playing big minutes (4x in the top-5 in minutes played); he's 15th all-time in minutes played (which has left him 30th all-time in WS, despite middling shooting efficiency). Is 27th since 1973 in VORP.

Alternate induction vote: Bob Lanier (for now; might switch to Butler pending prevailing winds, as I have them neck-n-neck)
I'll try to drop in later to provide some supporting arguments.
Suffice to say the common narrative on his defense [I think] is overstated, he was a consistently fantastic scorer with ample evidence of lift pretty much throughout his career, decent/good longevity, and a weak MVP peak in '74.

NOMINATION: Pau Gasol
Feels like we're way overdue to not at least have him on the table.
I'm voted for McHale last round, though have a hard time making the case [to myself] for McHale > Pau, given Pau's superior passing, turnover economy, rebounding, and meaningful longevity (all occurring in what is likely a marginally better league, too). Similar individual accolades and team accomplishments, too.

Was thinking of making a strategic pick for my alternate, but not seeing anyone else with traction that I'm particularly in favour of. Robert Parish and Ray Allen are the other guys I'd really like to see on the ticket......

I likely will have to begin the long and lonely task of trying to drum up support for another longevity giant [Parish] eventually.
Suffice to say that given Parish's superior rebounding, more than capable scoring and defense, similar team accomplishments, and FAR superior longevity.......wherever McHale is, Parish should definitely not be far behind [if at all], imo. So....

Alternate nomination: Robert Parish

Posted: **Sun Dec 3, 2023 8:32 pm**

Gonna hold off on my vote for a while, I need to watch GP tape and get better rest, most likely will be voting for Bob Lanier. General Sentiment on everyone here below

Jimmy B: Flat out Not Voting For Him, Not impressed by his ability to shot create but I still acknowledge his ability to use leverage points on the floor to tantalize the defense. I don’t think I’d vote Draymond over him, but it’s close.

Bob Lanier: Probably Who I’m voting For.

Embidd: Kinda agree with the earlier notion that he’s closer to Luka & Trae then To Jokic and Giannis, most of it although is due to his environment rather than his skillset imo. Probably my Alternative

GP: gonna watch his tape later on to see how I feel

Draymond: I can’t see myself voting for him for a while, Probably late 60s… early 70s, Could get into Mid-80s with Draymond. Especially considering the amount of players we haven’t gotten to as of now. Still I am pro-Draymond and could see him sneaking in somewhere soon.

Posted: **Sun Dec 3, 2023 9:47 pm**

Doctor MJ wrote:Our system is now as follows:

I have no intention of continuing to vote and participate actively in this project, due to life/time constraints....however:

1. You guys are (almost, all) far too focused on offense, while neglecting ATG defensive players.

2. The Recency Bias here is almost paranormal and resounding.

Nominate: Nate Thurmond

Quotes about Thurmond:

"Wilt Chamberlain sat in the airport terminal in San Francisco awaiting a flight to Boston. “He’s the toughest center I have to play,” he said. “He can rebound, play defense, and you’ve got to worry about him scoring, too. He’s a helluva center, and I don’t think he gets the recognition he deserves.”

"Nate was one of the great centers to ever play the game, and I was privileged to call him a teammate and dear friend" -Rick Barry

"Both Abdul-Jabbar and Chamberlain have gone on record saying they felt Thurmond was their toughest adversary. “He plays me better than anybody ever has,” Abdul-Jabbar told Basketball Digest when he was in his prime. “He’s tall, has real long arms, and most of all he’s agile and strong.” In an article in Sport, Abdul-Jabbar also said, “When I score on Nate, I know I’ve done something. He sweats and he wants you to sweat, too.”

--He was 45th in the NBA's 50 at 50 (October, 1996)

--He was 49th in the NBA's 75 at 75 (December, 2022)

Moreover, since most people are-clearly-& almost completely- stats and "impact" obsessed here; here's a bit of my empirical research:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jE5K2XrILol56zGe0e7LA-bKyRECGNgG/edit#gid=367062482

1. Thurmond held opposing HOF Centers to a .422 FG% across 524 games in the regular season plus playoffs. That's a ~15% reduction in FG%.

2. Russell: .416 vs. .464 FG% (757 games vs. HOF Centers). That's a 10% reduction in FG%.

3. Chamberlain: .434 vs .469 FG% (828 games). That's a 7.5% reduction in FG%.

4. Kareem: .493 vs .501 FG% (659 games). That's a 1.5% reduction in FG%.

5. Hakeem: .504 vs .484 FG% (359 games). 6% reduction in FG%.

6. Shaq: .445 vs .513 FG% (224 games). 13% reduction in FG%.

Thurmond's defensive rating (93) from 1973-1974 through 1976-1977 was third best in the NBA among players with 250+ games played. He was also well past his prime, ANCIENT for that era (ages 32-35) and, also, injury riddled.

Watch on YouTube

I know he was a terrible shooter, but his man to man post defense HAS to be among the top few greatest in NBA history.

All thoughts and input from the historians here is very, very much welcomed and appreciated.

Thank you, everyone!!!

Posted: **Sun Dec 3, 2023 10:20 pm**

ty 4191 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Our system is now as follows:

I have no intention of continuing to vote and participate actively in this project, due to life/time constraints....however:

1. You guys are (almost, all) far too focused on offense, while neglecting ATG defensive players.

2. The Recency Bias here is almost paranormal and resounding.

Nominate: Nate Thurmond

Quotes about Thurmond:

"Wilt Chamberlain sat in the airport terminal in San Francisco awaiting a flight to Boston. “He’s the toughest center I have to play,” he said. “He can rebound, play defense, and you’ve got to worry about him scoring, too. He’s a helluva center, and I don’t think he gets the recognition he deserves.”

"Nate was one of the great centers to ever play the game, and I was privileged to call him a teammate and dear friend" -Rick Barry

"Both Abdul-Jabbar and Chamberlain have gone on record saying they felt Thurmond was their toughest adversary. “He plays me better than anybody ever has,” Abdul-Jabbar told Basketball Digest when he was in his prime. “He’s tall, has real long arms, and most of all he’s agile and strong.” In an article in Sport, Abdul-Jabbar also said, “When I score on Nate, I know I’ve done something. He sweats and he wants you to sweat, too.”

--He was 45th in the NBA's 50 at 50 (October, 1996)

--He was 49th in the NBA's 75 at 75 (December, 2022)

Moreover, since most people are-clearly-& almost completely- stats and "impact" obsessed here; here's a bit of my empirical research:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jE5K2XrILol56zGe0e7LA-bKyRECGNgG/edit#gid=367062482

1. Thurmond held opposing HOF Centers to a .422 FG% across 524 games in the regular season plus playoffs. That's a ~15% reduction in FG%.

2. Russell: .416 vs. .464 FG% (757 games vs. HOF Centers). That's a 10% reduction in FG%.

3. Chamberlain: .434 vs .469 FG% (828 games). That's a 7.5% reduction in FG%.

4. Kareem: .493 vs .501 FG% (659 games). That's a 1.5% reduction in FG%.

5. Hakeem: .504 vs .484 FG% (359 games). 6% reduction in FG%.

6. Shaq: .445 vs .513 FG% (224 games). 13% reduction in FG%.

Thurmond's defensive rating (93) from 1973-1974 through 1976-1977 was third best in the NBA among players with 250+ games played. He was also well past his prime, ANCIENT for that era (ages 32-35) and, also, injury riddled.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

I know he was a terrible shooter, but his man to man post defense HAS to be among the top few greatest in NBA history.

All thoughts and input from the historians here is very, very much welcomed and appreciated.

Thank you, everyone!!!

Alright, so:

Good stuff here and I like seeing Thurmond getting championed. I'll also say that I appreciation your endnote and hope you'll consider joining us again later when your schedule permits.

A few observations on the specific point though:

1. I think it's important to understand that when guys slip down the list, it's often because there's no champion really addressing the concerns from others rather than a group specifically biased against him.

2. As voting gets more split, you end up getting voters stuck on particular guys they're championing - like me with Draymond right now, for example - and so there are other guys we wish we could vote for but can't due to prioritizing specific others already. Not saying anything about where I'll vote for Thurmond, just talking generally.

3. I'm not sure I'd agree that there's a glaring offensive bias going on here. I think we can always wonder if we're falling pray to an offensive gaze like the rest of the basketball world, but Dwight Howard just got voted in and as I said I'm here championing Green.

4. I will say that there's been something of a recent run on more run-of-the-mill offensive stars. Worth discussing how this happens, but part of it with Howard & Green is that both guys are very polarizing. I was part of the group voting against Howard and for Green, others were doing the same. When both groups end up finding as Paul Pierce as more acceptable than whichever of the other two we're less impressed by, guys like him can kinda "squirt" through the induction process.

5. Re: recency bias. Perhaps to some degree, but quite a few of his contemporaries are already in - including his main co-star teammate.

How I'd see Thurmond in general is as a guy who typically wasn't a Top 5 level guy in the league. So I might say he was a Top 10-type guy who had a solid but not super-long longevity. I think it's fine to champion someone at that level in this part of the project...but Thurmond isn't the only guy left who fits this description.

Posted: **Sun Dec 3, 2023 10:44 pm**

Said this a few times now, but Thurmond to me is a much more notable peak player than career player. I have him top three or four in both 1967 and 1969, and then fringe top five in 1971-73. However, those are his only five playoff runs as a star, and five is a uniquely paltry number here. And while part of that number was a product of team circumstance, to which I am obviously sympathetic, much of it was also because Thurmond did not maintain good health in those other seasons. Thirty games missed in 1968, and that carried through to the playoffs. Half a season missed in 1970, where nine or ten more wins would have given the Warriors a playoff berth. Twenty games missed in 1974, where the Warriors only needed three or four more wins.

That said, as I also emphasised last time Ty brought up his name, many people here have been more indifferent to health and missed time than I have been. I would take Thurmond over Embiid and Reed, so maybe Embiid voters should give Thurmond a second look.

Posted: **Sun Dec 3, 2023 11:05 pm**

Doctor MJ wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Our system is now as follows:

I have no intention of continuing to vote and participate actively in this project, due to life/time constraints....however:

1. You guys are (almost, all) far too focused on offense, while neglecting ATG defensive players.

2. The Recency Bias here is almost paranormal and resounding.

Nominate: Nate Thurmond

Quotes about Thurmond:

"Wilt Chamberlain sat in the airport terminal in San Francisco awaiting a flight to Boston. “He’s the toughest center I have to play,” he said. “He can rebound, play defense, and you’ve got to worry about him scoring, too. He’s a helluva center, and I don’t think he gets the recognition he deserves.”

"Nate was one of the great centers to ever play the game, and I was privileged to call him a teammate and dear friend" -Rick Barry

"Both Abdul-Jabbar and Chamberlain have gone on record saying they felt Thurmond was their toughest adversary. “He plays me better than anybody ever has,” Abdul-Jabbar told Basketball Digest when he was in his prime. “He’s tall, has real long arms, and most of all he’s agile and strong.” In an article in Sport, Abdul-Jabbar also said, “When I score on Nate, I know I’ve done something. He sweats and he wants you to sweat, too.”

--He was 45th in the NBA's 50 at 50 (October, 1996)

--He was 49th in the NBA's 75 at 75 (December, 2022)

Moreover, since most people are-clearly-& almost completely- stats and "impact" obsessed here; here's a bit of my empirical research:

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1jE5K2XrILol56zGe0e7LA-bKyRECGNgG/edit#gid=367062482

1. Thurmond held opposing HOF Centers to a .422 FG% across 524 games in the regular season plus playoffs. That's a ~15% reduction in FG%.

2. Russell: .416 vs. .464 FG% (757 games vs. HOF Centers). That's a 10% reduction in FG%.

3. Chamberlain: .434 vs .469 FG% (828 games). That's a 7.5% reduction in FG%.

4. Kareem: .493 vs .501 FG% (659 games). That's a 1.5% reduction in FG%.

5. Hakeem: .504 vs .484 FG% (359 games). 6% reduction in FG%.

6. Shaq: .445 vs .513 FG% (224 games). 13% reduction in FG%.

Thurmond's defensive rating (93) from 1973-1974 through 1976-1977 was third best in the NBA among players with 250+ games played. He was also well past his prime, ANCIENT for that era (ages 32-35) and, also, injury riddled.

Watch on YouTube

Watch on YouTube

I know he was a terrible shooter, but his man to man post defense HAS to be among the top few greatest in NBA history.

All thoughts and input from the historians here is very, very much welcomed and appreciated.

Thank you, everyone!!!

Alright, so:

Good stuff here and I like seeing Thurmond getting championed. I'll also say that I appreciation your endnote and hope you'll consider joining us again later when your schedule permits.

A few observations on the specific point though:

1. I think it's important to understand that when guys slip down the list, it's often because there's no champion really addressing the concerns from others rather than a group specifically biased against him.

2. As voting gets more split, you end up getting voters stuck on particular guys they're championing - like me with Draymond right now, for example - and so there are other guys we wish we could vote for but can't due to prioritizing specific others already. Not saying anything about where I'll vote for Thurmond, just talking generally.

3. I'm not sure I'd agree that there's a glaring offensive bias going on here. I think we can always wonder if we're falling pray to an offensive gaze like the rest of the basketball world, but Dwight Howard just got voted in and as I said I'm here championing Green.

4. I will say that there's been something of a recent run on more run-of-the-mill offensive stars. Worth discussing how this happens, but part of it with Howard & Green is that both guys are very polarizing. I was part of the group voting against Howard and for Green, others were doing the same. When both groups end up finding as Paul Pierce as more acceptable than whichever of the other two we're less impressed by, guys like him can kinda "squirt" through the induction process.

5. Re: recency bias. Perhaps to some degree, but quite a few of his contemporaries are already in - including his main co-star teammate.

How I'd see Thurmond in general is as a guy who typically wasn't a Top 5 level guy in the league. So I might say he was a Top 10-type guy who had a solid but not super-long longevity. I think it's fine to champion someone at that level in this part of the project...but Thurmond isn't the only guy left who fits this description.

The thingh is that a lot of us vote with a certain modernist lense/bias which will inherently favor offensive anchors over rim protecting ones

For better or worse spacing, looser rules for offense and the subsequent rise of heliocentrism and the increased inportance of team defense over individual anchors (due to said spacing, pick and roll, etc) just make individual offense more valuable than individual defense

And fairly or unfairly it reflects on voting

Posted: **Mon Dec 4, 2023 2:05 am**

GP is Cool

His defense is reactive, so he waits for the opponent to make a move and relies on his supreme quickness to cut them off and stay infront of them, which has a high degree of success. The most insane part of his defense is his twitch, dude’s reaction time when sliding( as in how long it takes to mirror the offensive players movement and cut them off) is elite, but when he’s jumping to contest he’s insane. It’s some crazy stuff, defenders are also very wary of his hands and it psychologically damages their offensive aggression.

Dude’s off ball defense is not good. He’s very reactionary as a defender and doesn’t have good sense of where he’s at on the floor. He can be easily manipulated by offensive players into low leverage spots as a defender and give up leeway. He’s just an over excited pest off the ball, often giving up good positioning. Screen Navigation is also terrible, but since he’s a Point of Attack Defender and Screens themselves weren’t a focal point of 90s offense these issues weren’t huge for GP. [ He can and will punish offenses for telegraphing a Pass and does have some Rim Protection capabilities as the help defender]

Offenses are extremely aware of where GP is on the floor, even as a POA Defender he gets a level of traditional elite rim protector respect as a defender.

Watched him Offensively and he just feels like Iverson Lite with better understanding of the extra pass and he has an uncanny feel of when the help is over-exerting and he’ll hit the pass really quickly. Not a great floor general, doesn’t really understand facilitation concepts he just hits you when you get open because someone is beat. He also has “Get me out a Slump” and “Heat Check” tendencies, where he’ll either fire it up to see one go in if he’s in a slump or be trigger happy to shoot the ball if he’s on a good run.

Didn’t watch an intensive amount of his game, but from early sightings this is what I’ve come to the conclusion of.

Posted: **Mon Dec 4, 2023 2:13 am**

(he also has no left hand)

Right now I’m feeling Lanier> GP> Embiid.

Embiid is better than Lanier and GP in regards of ability relative to how other people view this list in terms of criteria that’d be my ranking.

Lanier has crazy influence on the rebounding side of the game, and feels like he has a bigger presence on the game than Embidd.

HS BALL COMPS: Embidd is the big man who kindas a bum but is too big and skilled to stop( Monster against not great teams but struggles when he’s put up against a real challenge)
GP is the lock u down and shut you up 14 PPG Guard
Lanier is a game changer hustle man

Posted: **Mon Dec 4, 2023 2:57 am**

Induction Vote 1: Gary Payton. Elite defensively (especially on-ball), good offensively, great longevity for his era, pretty healthy throughout. I don't see enough separation between him and Frazier to justify keeping him off the list much longer. Think he's pretty clearly my top choice. Had 8 straight years of being top 10 in MVP shares (usually at 6th).
Induction Vote 2: Bob Lanier: Top 10 in MVP shares 4 times throughout his career (in comparison Draymond has finished top 10 once, Butler has done so twice, and Joel has done so four times). POY voting has Butler and Joel ahead of him, but tends to only value elite seasons highly, thus (in my opinion) underrating longevity. I'll take Lanier's full career over half of Butler's or Embiid's, and I think he was better than Draymond (despite being less impactful).

Other Potential Nominees: Bobby Jones, Ray Allen, and Ben Wallace
Nomination Vote 1: Chauncey Billups. Great Longevity, efficient scorer, very few weaknesses as a player.
Nomination Vote 2: Nate Thurmond. The greatest man defender in NBA history, who was a very capable rim protector and surprisingly capable on the perimeter. I have him as a top 5 defender ever, but I believe that he bled enough offensive value to end up right around the top 50 range.

Posted: **Mon Dec 4, 2023 3:15 am**

WintaSoldier1 wrote:(he also has no left hand)

Not many people know that non-dominant hand dribbling was invented in 2001.

Posted: **Mon Dec 4, 2023 3:50 am**

1. Draymond Green

-> Superstar impact by every approach throughout prime
-> Playoff-Riser
-> Centerpiece of an arguably era-best defense
-> Cornerstone of an all-time dynasty
-> Best-in-league calibre defender
-> One of the few two-way floor-generals in history

Nomination:

1. Nate Thurmond

2. Bill Walton

A little too good to not at least be in the discussion, even if he's a hard-sell for a career-value approach

Posted: **Mon Dec 4, 2023 4:37 am**

ty 4191 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Our system is now as follows:

I have no intention of continuing to vote and participate actively in this project, due to life/time constraints....however:

1. You guys are (almost, all) far too focused on offense, while neglecting ATG defensive players.

2. The Recency Bias here is almost paranormal and resounding.

Nominate: Nate Thurmond

Quotes about Thurmond:

"

Half of the players in the last 10 spots played before I was even born. One of them even played before my father was born. Shouldn't you look inward and maybe consider that you are the one with bias toward certain eras?

Posted: **Mon Dec 4, 2023 8:22 am**

HeartBreakKid wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
Doctor MJ wrote:Our system is now as follows:

I have no intention of continuing to vote and participate actively in this project, due to life/time constraints....however:

1. You guys are (almost, all) far too focused on offense, while neglecting ATG defensive players.

2. The Recency Bias here is almost paranormal and resounding.

Nominate: Nate Thurmond

Quotes about Thurmond:

"

Half of the players in the last 10 spots played before I was even born. One of them even played before my father was born. Shouldn't you look inward and maybe consider that you are the one with bias toward certain eras?

What did Draymond Green do that Nate Thurmond didn't, skill wise, especially defensively, over his career?

Posted: **Mon Dec 4, 2023 8:24 am**

ty 4191 wrote:
HeartBreakKid wrote:
ty 4191 wrote:
I have no intention of continuing to vote and participate actively in this project, due to life/time constraints....however:

1. You guys are (almost, all) far too focused on offense, while neglecting ATG defensive players.

2. The Recency Bias here is almost paranormal and resounding.

Nominate: Nate Thurmond

Quotes about Thurmond:

"

Half of the players in the last 10 spots played before I was even born. One of them even played before my father was born. Shouldn't you look inward and maybe consider that you are the one with bias toward certain eras?

What did Draymond Green do that Nate Thurmond didn't, skill wise, especially defensively, over his career?

Draymond Green isn't on the list. You may as well cite Bob Lanier as recentcy bias.

Posted: **Mon Dec 4, 2023 8:50 am**

My vote is for Joel Embiid - I just saw Samurai nominate him and I'm trying to think "why not"? Hasn't had a great post season yet that I can recall, but seems in rank with the guys here, if not better because he seems a step above most of them in the RS. I might take him over Howard, I do feel he is the "better player" but I could be overlooking the rather big defensive gap in Howard's favor.

Alternate vote is for Gary Payton - Don't really like any of the other candidates, Payton included.

Bob Lanier - I don't really have an opinion of him.

Green - I'm taking a franchise player center piece over Green.

Jimmy Butler - His lows are just as bad as his highs are good. But I'm overdue for an evaluation of him.

My nomination is for Bill Walton

My alternate nomination is for Willis Reed - Arguably just as good as Frazier albeit his career feels even shorter.

RealGM

RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Bob Lanier)

RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Bob Lanier)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)

Re: RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #50 (Deadline ~5am PST, 12/6/2023)