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Where would Peak Dirk rank in todays league?

Number 2 behind jokic

behind lebron ofc because he won nba cup.

Dirk, as Shaq would say, would be 100% BBQ Chicken on Defense. He was atrocious in his era at guarding past 8ft from the basket, open space & in PnR Action. Dirk's lateral foot quickness & perpendicular movements was embarrassingly poor.

His Defense was actually sub standard in his era, it's just his luck teams did not properly exploit his Defensive weaknesses & stereotyped him by constantly posting him up assuming physicality was Dirk's primary deficiency on Defense when in reality it was covering open space is where Dirk struggled most.

Dirk most likely would have been a fringe Top 10 player probably Top 15. Jokic-esque Offensive player while being a Kyle Kuzma-esque defender at the Forward position.

Funny thing is he might get worse due to his relative value decreasing. He'd definitely be worse on defense in this era and would get mismatch hunted to death but his floor spacing wouldn't be as valuable in this era either due to how common stretch 4's are now. He'd still be top 5 though at his best, maybe 3rd after Jokic and Giannis, 4th if Embiid is actually healthy, 5th if you think Luka is better.

Early Dirk is a better fit for this era and peak Dirk IMO, much more agile, mainly face up game, great shot both spot up and pull up, a Markannen/Durant hybrid.

McBubbles wrote:Funny thing is he might get worse due to his relative value decreasing. He'd definitely be worse on defense in this era and would get mismatch hunted to death but his floor spacing wouldn't be as valuable in this era either due to how common stretch 4's are now. He'd still be top 5 though at his best, maybe 3rd after Jokic and Giannis, 4th if Embiid is actually healthy, 5th if you think Luka is better.

Dirk's value was not limited to stretching the floor. He became an insane mismatch when he perfected that midrange along with his post-up skills.

AdagioPace wrote:

McBubbles wrote:Funny thing is he might get worse due to his relative value decreasing. He'd definitely be worse on defense in this era and would get mismatch hunted to death but his floor spacing wouldn't be as valuable in this era either due to how common stretch 4's are now. He'd still be top 5 though at his best, maybe 3rd after Jokic and Giannis, 4th if Embiid is actually healthy, 5th if you think Luka is better.

Dirk's value was not limited to stretching the floor. He became an insane mismatch when he perfected that midrange along with his post-up skills.

Dirk's value wasn't even directly tied to stretching the floor if you compare him to what the term "Stretch 4" means.

Dirk's value was being a 3-level scorer from the High Post, a GOAT level Mid-Range shooter who soaked up all the inefficient areas on the court and allowed his teammates to mobilize around the rim via cuts or at the 3 Point Line.

Not sure if its Dirk playing until he was 40 and couldn't move that have people forgetting or just lazy Euro stereotypes, but peak physical Dirk was an athletic big. Sure he'd get targeted in the PNR, but even good defensive bigs get targeted because they are vulnerable in space.

But anyone who thinks Dirk was a spacing big actually isn't familiar with his career at all. He wasn't remotely a high volume 3-pt shooter basically ever, but only at the very beginning and end of his career was it even moderate. At his peak, his 3-pt shooting wasn't a relevant part of his attack.

This was a guy at his peak who was both the best PNR big in the world(and maybe ever) and the best high post player in the league. That's where he killed teams.

Great players are great. Dirk would be great now. How he compares relative to Giannis/Embiid/Curry today? You can guess. He's not Jokic, but he's better than just about everyone else.

AdagioPace wrote:

McBubbles wrote:Funny thing is he might get worse due to his relative value decreasing. He'd definitely be worse on defense in this era and would get mismatch hunted to death but his floor spacing wouldn't be as valuable in this era either due to how common stretch 4's are now. He'd still be top 5 though at his best, maybe 3rd after Jokic and Giannis, 4th if Embiid is actually healthy, 5th if you think Luka is better.

Dirk's value was not limited to stretching the floor. He became an insane mismatch when he perfected that midrange along with his post-up skills.

Of course, but most of the things you just mentioned wouldn't get more valuable in this era whilst his 3 point shooting would get less valuable. Thus, he'd be slightly less valuable. Simplez.

His mismatching ability might improve due to center sized power forwards like himself essentially disappearing from the game, but its for that reason he'd get cooked on defense lol. Dirk with his peak athleticism wouldn't get cooked, but peak athletic Dirk and peak Dirk aren't the same person unfortunately.

Don't know why people feel the need to remind me that Dirk wasn't just a catch and shoot 3 point shooting big, as if that's what I implied.

McBubbles wrote:Don't know why people feel the need to remind me that Dirk wasn't just a catch and shoot 3 point shooting big, as if that's what I implied.

Dirk was as much of a stretch 4 as LeBron James was.

Colbinii wrote:

McBubbles wrote:Don't know why people feel the need to remind me that Dirk wasn't just a catch and shoot 3 point shooting big, as if that's what I implied.

Dirk was as much of a stretch 4 as LeBron James was.

In how teams bent to his spacing effect, no, not at all — and if anything this is what implies spacing is all about three-point shot volume.

McBubbles wrote:Don't know why people feel the need to remind me that Dirk wasn't just a catch and shoot 3 point shooting big, as if that's what I implied.

despite 25 years of internet forums and artificial intelligence, unfortunately there's no way to convey tone through a virtual message. Don't take my comment (and maybe Colbinii's) as a rebuttal. I tend to see threads as buildings where everybody adds some building block.

AEnigma wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

McBubbles wrote:Don't know why people feel the need to remind me that Dirk wasn't just a catch and shoot 3 point shooting big, as if that's what I implied.

Dirk was as much of a stretch 4 as LeBron James was.

In how teams bent to his spacing effect, no, not at all — and if anything this is what implies spacing is all about three-point shot volume.

I think of the Term "Stretch 4" as a player like Ryan Anderson.

Player A:
25.6PPG, 8.6 RPG, 1.9 APG, 50/39/87.5 FG/3P/FT, 64% TS

Player B:
26.6 PPG 9.0 RPG 2.8 APG, 48/40.6/90.1 FG/3P/FT, 58.9% TS

One of these players is peak Dirk Nowitzki. Who is the other?

McBubbles wrote:Don't know why people feel the need to remind me that Dirk wasn't just a catch and shoot 3 point shooting big, as if that's what I implied.

The irony here is that because Dirk attacked inside the arc, the addition of spacing bigs to play around him would only make him more effective not less as you implied. This is literally why the real world Mavs added LaFrentz to play next to him--very much the modern archtype of a 3-pt shooter with some rim protection.

I think a more interesting/related question is would he still be a full time 4 in 2023? You probably do want a bona fide rim protector next to him, but what if he was used more like Sabonis in Sac? Or is he not a strong enough rebounder to hold it down?

Colbinii wrote:

McBubbles wrote:Don't know why people feel the need to remind me that Dirk wasn't just a catch and shoot 3 point shooting big, as if that's what I implied.

Dirk was as much of a stretch 4 as LeBron James was.

1. I never even called Dirk a stretch 4. I said his 3 point shooting would be less valuable today due to the abundance of stretch 4's, but now that you've brought it up;

2. Dirk took TWO layups per game in 2011. That's less layups per game than an out of prime Steve Nash.

2.4 layups per game and 2.3 post ups per game with the other 11 of his 16 shot attempts coming entirely from jump shots.

Is this the pedantic hill we're going to die on? The 6'11 four, that stretches the floor, that takes 11 jump shots a game, likely the highest percentage of offence from long range for his position ever, can in absolutely no way be considered a stretch 4 and anyone who thinks otherwise clearly didn't watch his career? Really ? Ok.

Texas Chuck wrote:

McBubbles wrote:Don't know why people feel the need to remind me that Dirk wasn't just a catch and shoot 3 point shooting big, as if that's what I implied.

The irony here is that because Dirk attacked inside the arc, the addition of spacing bigs to play around him would only make him more effective not less as you implied. This is literally why the real world Mavs added LaFrentz to play next to him--very much the modern archtype of a 3-pt shooter with some rim protection.

He would be a more “effective” scorer in the sense he would score more efficiently today, but that is different from being a more effective scorer in a relative sense — which is what all these questions ask.

I think peak Dirk playing today would be better than current Durant, as the easiest point of comparison, and in that I think he would qualify as one of the absolute best volume scorers today. However, the fact I need to say “one of” means there would be a decline in Dirk’s relative status, and there is also a lot of room between current Durant and current Jokic.

In-era Dirk was a transformational figure who guaranteed a perpetual streak of success just shy of Duncan and the Spurs so long as he had decent starters around him. Today, he would need a lot more than Josh Howard and Jason Terry to do that. It is not a criticism, it is an observation of how the better the whole of the league becomes, the harder it is to rise above it.