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Where would peak D-Rob rank today?

He's not better than Jokic, but I like him as much if not more so than Giannis and Embiid. I'd give him top 3.

Embiid doesn't look much different from D-Rob tbh (seemingly a perfect player with huge numbers)
I like Giannis and his brute-force a bit more.
When it comes to wings/guards I don't think we are seeing amazing peak years by perimeter players in 2023 so I would also say top 3, top 5 at worst

He's not better than Jokic

Wait. What?

There are arguments as to who was the better player on offense, but David Robinson is an all-time great defensive C and Jokic is an average defender at best for a C. Not even close.

Not only that but DRob played 3000+ minutes in a season in 6 of his first 7 seasons. Jokic has never played more than 2504 minutes in a season, and has averaged less than 2300 minutes played per season in his career.

And we are talking about peak Robinson. Peak Robinson today is clearly the best player in the league.

kcktiny wrote:

He's not better than Jokic

Wait. What?

There are arguments as to who was the better player on offense, but David Robinson is an all-time great defensive C and Jokic is an average defender at best for a C. Not even close.

Not only that but DRob played 3000+ minutes in a season in 6 of his first 7 seasons. Jokic has never played more than 2504 minutes in a season, and has averaged less than 2300 minutes played per season in his career.

And we are talking about peak Robinson. Peak Robinson today is clearly the best player in the league.

No, there is not, just like you said, not even close.

kcktiny wrote:

He's not better than Jokic

Wait. What?

There are arguments as to who was the better player on offense,

What? No there aren't.

Defense is the reason D-Rob is in this conversation, very much not offense.

What? No there aren't.

Huh? Do you even know who David Robinson is??

Defense is the reason D-Rob is in this conversation, very much not offense.

Evidently not.

Robinson's first seven years in the league, 1989-90 to 1995-96, before his injury, he:

- scored more total points (14,260, 25.6 pts/g) than any player in the league other than Karl Malone, i.e. he scored the second most total points among all players
- grabbed the third most offensive rebounds (1922, 3.5 orb/g) among all players
- attempted the second most FTs (5536, 9.9 FTA/g) among all players, i.e. he got a lot of opposing Cs sent to the bench with foul trouble on a regular basis...
- committed the 6th most turnovers (1626, 2.9 to/g, 3.1 to/40min)
- he was very efficient on offense for a C, when you factor in all of his shooting (including 75% FT% on those 9.9 FTA/g) and his turnovers

What has Nikola Jokic done on offense? In his first eight seasons (2015-16 to 2022-23) Jokic:

- scored the 11th most points among all players (12054, 20.2 pts/g)
- grabbed the 6th most offensive rebounds (1560, 2.6 orb/g) among all players
- attempted the 19th most FTs (2661, 4.5 FTA/g) among all players
- committed the 2nd most turnovers (1709, 2.9 to/g, 3.7 to/40min) among all players
- his offensive efficiency compared to other Cs during these eight seasons was nothing special, primarily because of his high turnovers

So Robinson scored much better than Jokic, was the much better offensive rebounder, got to the FT line far more than Jokic, and did all this while committing turnovers at a significantly lower rate.

Jokic was clearly the better passer, but in pretty much every other phase of offense Robinson was not only better but was much better.

And before you mention FG%s, be sure to compare their FG%s to the other Cs of their time. During those seven years of Robinson, the league average C shot just a 49.9% 2pt FG%. During the eight seasons of Jokic, the league average C shot a 57.3% 2pt FG%. Huge difference.

kcktiny wrote:

What? No there aren't.

Huh? Do you even know who David Robinson is??

Defense is the reason D-Rob is in this conversation, very much not offense.

Evidently not.

Robinson's first seven years in the league, 1989-90 to 1995-96, before his injury, he:

- scored more total points (14,260, 25.6 pts/g) than any player in the league other than Karl Malone, i.e. he scored the second most total points among all players
- grabbed the third most offensive rebounds (1922, 3.5 orb/g) among all players
- attempted the second most FTs (5536, 9.9 FTA/g) among all players, i.e. he got a lot of opposing Cs sent to the bench with foul trouble on a regular basis...
- committed the 6th most turnovers (1626, 2.9 to/g, 3.1 to/40min)
- he was very efficient on offense for a C, when you factor in all of his shooting (including 75% FT% on those 9.9 FTA/g) and his turnovers

What has Nikola Jokic done on offense? In his first eight seasons (2015-16 to 2022-23) Jokic:

- scored the 11th most points among all players (12054, 20.2 pts/g)
- grabbed the 6th most offensive rebounds (1560, 2.6 orb/g) among all players
- attempted the 19th most FTs (2661, 4.5 FTA/g) among all players
- committed the 2nd most turnovers (1709, 2.9 to/g, 3.7 to/40min) among all players
- his offensive efficiency compared to other Cs during these eight seasons was nothing special, primarily because of his high turnovers

So Robinson scored much better than Jokic, was the much better offensive rebounder, got to the FT line far more than Jokic, and did all this while committing turnovers at a significantly lower rate.

Jokic was clearly the better passer, but in pretty much every other phase of offense Robinson was not only better but was much better.

And before you mention FG%s, be sure to compare their FG%s to the other Cs of their time. During those seven years of Robinson, the league average C shot just a 49.9% 2pt FG%. During the eight seasons of Jokic, the league average C shot a 57.3% 2pt FG%. Huge difference.

I'm huge on David Robinson, and I think he is a top 15 player ever. However, I really disagree with this assessment of his offense. Playmaking drives efficient offense, and while Robinson is one of the greatest finishers ever, yet he can't initiate offense like Jokic. Peak Jokic is the greatest offensive force in NBA history (except for maybe Nash), he's like if Magic and Hakeem had a baby. Jokic can create layups for others out of nowhere while being a walking mismatch in single coverage. He can handle the ball better than Robinson, pass better, and stretch a defense with his shooting. I have D-Rob as a top 5 defender ever, and his defense makes this comparison feasible. Offensively, it's a blowout.

I'm huge on David Robinson, and I think he is a top 15 player ever. However, I really disagree with this assessment of his offense.

Everything I listed was factual, just statistics. What are you disagreeing with?

Offensively, it's a blowout.

Really? Tell you what. How about you list your top 20 Cs of all-time NBA history for their offense. Then list your top 20 Cs of all-time for their defense. Let's see how you rank Robinson and Jokic on those lists.

I'd be real curious to see which Cs specifically you list above Robinson for offense, and then to see who you list Jokic as being better than on defense.

This should prove interesting.

kcktiny wrote:

I'm huge on David Robinson, and I think he is a top 15 player ever. However, I really disagree with this assessment of his offense.

Everything I listed was factual, just statistics. What are you disagreeing with?

Offensively, it's a blowout.

Really? Tell you what. How about you list your top 20 Cs of all-time NBA history for their offense. Then list your top 20 Cs of all-time for their defense. Let's see how you rank Robinson and Jokic on those lists.

I'd be real curious to see which Cs specifically you list above Robinson for offense, and then to see who you list Jokic as being better than on defense.

This should prove interesting.

I'm disagreeing with how you came to your conclusion. You list a lot of objectives stats that don't really quantify the aspects of offense Jokic excels at. Spacing, the quality of their passes, difficulty of shot attempts (making them harder to take away in the postseason see Hakeem or Kobe), ball handling ability, and a whole host of other factors go into offensive production. On a team level, how much did D-Rob elevate offense?

Jokic
Shaq
Kareem
Mikan (I'm really high on his offense and low on his defense)
Bob Macadoo
Neil Johnston
Bill Walton
Moses Malone
Bob Lanier
Wilt
Joel Embiid
Peja Stojaković
With Cowens, Reed, and Bosh in consideration as well

I don't think Jokic is anywhere near a top 20 defender at center, but D-Rob would be a better Giannis in today's game. His paint protection would still be unbelievable (yet less impactful) and I could see his offense doing even better than in his era. I'm really not trying to bash him here, but it feels weird to even be in this discussion when Jokic is putting up a string of historically dominant seasons while being a very average defender

Robinson's three-year peak (94, 95, 96) was ridiculous. He might even be better today than he was in the 90s with his face-up game now in style. He'd have more spacing (facing much smaller bodies) to take off toward the basket like Giannis does. I think his underrated handles and passing would be utilized better today. Unlike Giannis, he has a solid jumper. And he'd be the best defender in the league.

He would probably be the best player, but given the uniqueness and immense value of Jokic, I played it safe and voted top three.

I'm disagreeing with how you came to your conclusion. You list a lot of objectives stats that don't really quantify the aspects of offense Jokic excels at.

The stats do quantify that Robinson (a) was the much better scorer, (b) was the much better offensive rebounder, and (c) drew far more fouls than Jokic. And last I checked these are all aspects of offense.

Spacing, the quality of their passes, difficulty of shot attempts (making them harder to take away in the postseason see Hakeem or Kobe), ball handling ability

Care to quantify these? Or are we to just take your word on these?

and a whole host of other factors go into offensive production

Really? Like what?

On a team level, how much did D-Rob elevate offense?

Again - do you not know who David Robinson was?

His first 7 years in the league (1989-90 to 1996-97) the Spurs had the league's 2nd best W-L record (averaged 55 wins a season), and despite playing just 15% of the team's total minutes played, Robinson was directly personally responsible for:

- scoring 24% of the team's total points scored - that's 1/4 of a 55 win averaging team's total points scored
- grabbing 25% of the team's offensive rebounds
- attempting 1/3 of the team's total FTAs

all this from just one player, over a very long 7 season stretch.

You care to answer your own question?

Jokic
Shaq
Kareem
Mikan (I'm really high on his offense and low on his defense)
Bob Macadoo
Neil Johnston
Bill Walton
Moses Malone
Bob Lanier
Wilt
Joel Embiid
Peja Stojaković
With Cowens, Reed, and Bosh in consideration as well

You really are grasping at straws. Bill Walton never averaged even 19 pts/g in a season, only once had 200+ offensive rebounds in a season, never attempted even 330 FTAs in a season. But he is somehow a better offensive C than David Robinson? Based on what?

Dave Cowens never averaged as much as 21 pts/g in a season, shot just 46% on 2s over his career. But he is somehow a better offensive C than DRob? Are you serious?

And Chris bosh was not the scorer, offensive rebounder, nor attempted anywhere near the FTs DRob did.

Bottom line is for those who understand the NBA David Robinson is clearly a top 10 all-time offensive C, top 10 defensive C.

I don't think Jokic is anywhere near a top 20 defender at center

You can list Jokic anywhere you want on offense but he is not even a top 50 defensive C all-time. Jokic fans all make excuses for his average-at-best defense, and no matter how good his offense is that does not make up for his lack of defense compared to the all-time all-around great Cs, Cs that excelled at both ends of the floor. Great defensive Cs hugely impact the outcomes of games (try watching Rudy Gobert this season) as much as great offensive Cs do.

Also don't know how young you are but Peja Stojakovic was a SF.

Also claiming Jokic is a better C offensively than either Wilt or Kareem is about as disingenuous as it gets. Not only were both far better scorers than Jokic, and far more efficient on offense compared to their peers than Jokic, both played far far more minutes their first 8 seasons in the league than Jokic has his first 8 seasons. Chamberlain played 47 min/g, Jabbar 42 min/g, Jokic a measly 31 min/g. Kinda hard to help your team on offense when your can is on the bench for more than 1/3 of every 48 minute game.

Arguing that Robinson is a better offensive player than Jokic because he clashed the glass more is strange way to do that... but I am afraid it's the only way to do that.

No, Robinson wasn't better scorer than Jokic. It's not even debatable.

Top 3.

kcktiny wrote:

What? No there aren't.

Huh? Do you even know who David Robinson is??

Defense is the reason D-Rob is in this conversation, very much not offense.

Evidently not.

Robinson's first seven years in the league, 1989-90 to 1995-96, before his injury, he:

- scored more total points (14,260, 25.6 pts/g) than any player in the league other than Karl Malone, i.e. he scored the second most total points among all players
- grabbed the third most offensive rebounds (1922, 3.5 orb/g) among all players
- attempted the second most FTs (5536, 9.9 FTA/g) among all players, i.e. he got a lot of opposing Cs sent to the bench with foul trouble on a regular basis...
- committed the 6th most turnovers (1626, 2.9 to/g, 3.1 to/40min)
- he was very efficient on offense for a C, when you factor in all of his shooting (including 75% FT% on those 9.9 FTA/g) and his turnovers

What has Nikola Jokic done on offense? In his first eight seasons (2015-16 to 2022-23) Jokic:

- scored the 11th most points among all players (12054, 20.2 pts/g)
- grabbed the 6th most offensive rebounds (1560, 2.6 orb/g) among all players
- attempted the 19th most FTs (2661, 4.5 FTA/g) among all players
- committed the 2nd most turnovers (1709, 2.9 to/g, 3.7 to/40min) among all players
- his offensive efficiency compared to other Cs during these eight seasons was nothing special, primarily because of his high turnovers

So Robinson scored much better than Jokic, was the much better offensive rebounder, got to the FT line far more than Jokic, and did all this while committing turnovers at a significantly lower rate.

Jokic was clearly the better passer, but in pretty much every other phase of offense Robinson was not only better but was much better.

And before you mention FG%s, be sure to compare their FG%s to the other Cs of their time. During those seven years of Robinson, the league average C shot just a 49.9% 2pt FG%. During the eight seasons of Jokic, the league average C shot a 57.3% 2pt FG%. Huge difference.

I'm higher on David Robinson than almost anyone. I have him #9 all-time. He's not even remotely close to Jokic as an offensive player. Jokic is probably the best offensive player of all-time. He's the best passer since Magic AND the most efficient scorer of all-time to average more than 15 PPG. Robinson averaged 2.5 APG for his career and was a mediocre shooter, making 73% from the line with no 3-point range. It's an absurd comparison. If David Robinson played offense like Jokic, he would have been the GOAT easily. Jordan wouldn't have stood a chance against him.

Edit: Just read more of your post. You're using cumulative totals for their first 7 years combined even though Robinson came into the league as a finished product at 24 and Jokic came into the league at age 20 as a 2nd rounder who had to fight for minutes? Come on. Disingenuous much? You have to see what's wrong with that, right?

How about we compare them from age 24-28 instead. You still get Robinson's peak year. Jokic is averaging 25/12/8 on .650 TS% for an 8.5 OBPM. Robinson is averaging 25/12/3 on .590 TS% for a 5.2 OPBM. In the playoffs, Jokic averages 28/12/7 on .619 TS% for a 7.9 OBPM while Robinson averages 24/12/3 on .566 TS% for a 4.0 OBPM.

Certainly not Jokic level for me, D-Rob was a GOAT level defender, but offensively wasn't in the same world even. I think a better comparison there would be Anthony Davis, but overall, it's hard to say whether I would take him before Embiid or Giannis, probably not. If Joel can prove himself in PO it will be tough for D-Rob to be a winner in this comparison

Ol Roy wrote:Robinson's three-year peak (94, 95, 96) was ridiculous. He might even be better today than he was in the 90s with his face-up game now in style. He'd have more spacing (facing much smaller bodies) to take off toward the basket like Giannis does. I think his underrated handles and passing would be utilized better today. Unlike Giannis, he has a solid jumper. And he'd be the best defender in the league.

The same reason he might be a better player today (reasonable) is also the reason he wouldn't have the same kind of defensive impact he had back then. He'd still be elite and one of the best defenders, sure, but not have the same kind of impact he had in his era.

I also do believe that his offensive limitations would continue to matter. He'd still be best suited as the #2 on offense thriving next to a high-level perimeter player and a spread-out floor. The top-tier Centers who are currently the anchors of their offense – Jokic and Embiid – can play as hubs and create on the ball. Robinson wouldn't be able to do that and it would limit him in comparison. I'd expect him to be something close to AD as an offensive player.

In terms of where he would rank – I think top 5 is a reasonable choice all things considered, especially when we factor in his level of experience and durability during his peak.

Jokic is not a normal center.

Peak pre injury Robinson who was not Duncan’s teammate was better than Embiid and Giannis.

Unfortunately for Robinson he was not as good as Hakim.

Greatest passing center of all time, and it's ridiculous how much better he is than everyone else.

Regular Season:


Playoffs:

David robinson is obviously not an offensive #1 if he plays today. Nor does his defense hold up as well.