1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.
2. Nomination vote now works the same way.
3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.
4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.
5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.
5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.
Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):
Spoiler:
AEnigma Ambrose ceilng raiser ceoofkobefans Clyde Frazier Colbinii cupcakesnake Doctor MJ Dooley DQuinn1575 Dr Positivity DraymondGold Dutchball97 f4p falcolombardi Fundamentals21 Gibson22 HeartBreakKid homecourtloss iggymcfrack LA Bird JimmyFromNz Joao Saraiva lessthanjake Lou Fan Moonbeam Narigo OhayoKD OldSchoolNoBull penbeast0 Rishkar rk2023 Samurai ShaqAttac Taj FTW Tim Lehrbach trelos6 trex_8063 ty 4191 WintaSoldier1 ZeppelinPage
Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):
Paul Arizin
Joel Embiid
Pau Gasol
George Gervin
Nate Thurmond
As requested, here's the current list so far along with the historical spreadsheet of previous projects:
Vote: Joel Embiid Best of the bigs on both ends and in a tougher era. Multiple MVP; main concern is limited games and a lack of a powerful playoff run.
Alternate vote: Nate Thurmond -- my trouble with Thurmond is that I think Bobby Jones was probably more impactful (less on defense but making it up on offense) and no one else is even thinking of him, but . . .from Arizin's era to Thurmond's is one of the NBA's big jumps and I think Nate just got unlucky being in the same era as Russ and Wilt to some degree. Ray Allen just wasn't that special an offensive player, more very good than great, and nothing to write home about on defense, Gervin was a great scorer for his day but had with little playmaking and little defensive effort. Convince me that either Allen or Gervin had stronger impact numbers rather than just being scorers and I'll switch my vote as I'm not a big Thurmond fan.
Nominate: Bobby Jones. More than a decade of straight 1st team All-Defense votes combined with high efficiency, though not high volume scoring, and good playmaking. Not a great rebounder for his position but could play 2-5 at either end. Probably the greatest glue guy in NBA history and in his time where he was the best player on his team (75 and 76 for example), his team was the best in the league both years though they came up short in the playoffs. The most 1st team All-Defense awards, best player on two Nugget teams that had the best record in the NBA (though both came up short in the playoffs), great efficiency without being just an inside scorer, excellent passer, decent offensive rebounder, defensively good at blocking out rather than getting the board, good shot blocker for a forward, good steals, could play up to the 5 or down to the 2, limited minutes because of a physical condition but probably the greatest glue guy in the history of the NBA.
Basically a more consistent version of Draymond Green defensively with efficient offense and a great attitude but in a weaker era. Another take from a previous project:
LA Bird wrote:....
Bobby Jones Low minutes played is the main reason why Jones isn't ranked higher but I should point out Ginobili played pretty much the same amount of minutes and was voted in 15+ rounds ago. Jones leading Denver to the #1 record in his two ABA seasons (61 win rate) while averaging ~33 minutes a game is rarely mentioned as he seemed to be more remembered for his 6th man role in his later years. Offensively, he has one of the highest career TS% (60.7) and his assists (3.5 per 36), assist/turnover (~1.34) are both great for power forwards. Jones's scoring peaked at 19 ppg per 36 in 81 so it's not like his scoring efficiency was only high because of selective shots and extremely low usage like a DeAndre Jordan. Defensively, Jones is one of the best help defenders of all time and his 10 All-Defensive first team selections is a record that's likely to stand for a very long time. His raw plus minus stats are elite and will probably look even better if we had stats from his Nuggets seasons:
Alt Alonzo Mourning: Zo is a better or equivalent scorer than Reed, Cowens, Parish, Mutombo, etc., a shotblocker equal to Mutombo and stronger defensively than Parish, Cowens, or Reed, played more games in his prime, and is probably the best of the 4. I say probably because his passing ability was a major problem especially compared to Cowens or Reed and he never really had the great playoff success in his prime of the others (Mutombo excepted).
VOTE: George Gervin NOMINATE: Dave Cowens AltNom: Isiah Thomas
AEnigma wrote:I continue to be confused by the lack of support for Cowens. We have seen titles for Barry and Gilmore give them a relatively secure standing, and I think it is difficult to argue against Cowens as the top player on the 1976 Celtics even if people are split on him versus Havlicek in 1974. His impact is clear, consistently showcasing twenty-win lift on a Celtics team that otherwise looked mediocre (when contending) to bad (when not) without Cowens. And he is very much a sort of precursor to Draymond, nominated several rounds ago, in how he was a somewhat undersized defensive anchor frequently taking a lead playmaking role to make use of his team’s strong off-ball wings.
Those who read my posts toward the end of the Peaks Project have already seen me post this article, but for those who have not, this is one of my favourite accounts of him:
Spoiler:
Cort Reynolds wrote: He may not have been named MVP of the NBA Finals in 1974 or 1976, but undersized Hall of Fame Boston center Dave Cowens was the key force in winning both clinching games of those memorable championship series for the Celtics.
In the 1970's no one played harder for Boston, or anyone else for that matter, with apologies to Jerry Sloan, Norm Van Lier and Dave DeBusschere, than the fiery 6-8.5 redhead.
In game seven of the epic 1974 NBA Finals, the Celtics faced the tall task of beating Milwaukee on the road. Buck center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was in his youthful prime and enjoyed nearly a six-inch height advantage - which was probably close to a foot when reach is included - over Cowens.
…
The Bucks had forced a seventh game by winning a double overtime classic in Boston just two days earlier, when Jabbar's long running baseline hook over Celtic backup center Hank Finkel gave Milwaukee a see-saw 102-101 victory.
Cowens had fouled out earlier in overtime, or the outcome may well have been different, with the Celtics likely celebrating title number 12 at home.
John Havlicek had traded baskets with the 7-2 Jabbar throughout the final extra session, scoring nine of his 36 points in the second OT, but Kareem got the last shot in.
Yet a hustling play by Cowens that came to epitomize his career happened late in that classic sixth contest. Dave switched off on a pick defensively to cover Robertson, then used his quick hands to poke the ball away from the Hall of Famer.
The speedy center then out-sprinted the 6-5 guard for the loose ball, which rolled into the backcourt. Cowens dove for the ball and slid with it near the sidelines while the loose leather bobbled in and out of his arms. Oscar trailed the play and never left his feet, almost in disbelief at the bigger man's reckless dive.
Cowens left a sweat streak about 10 feet long on the old Garden parquet, probably along with some skin. While the Bucks argued that he never had possession of the ball, the referees correctly ruled that the 24-second clock had nevertheless run out to give Boston the ball.
Not long after, Cowens fouled out with just 13 points on five of 19 shooting, and his absence contributed to the series-tying Buck win. Determined to redeem himself, the proud Celtic star came out firing in game seven.
Boston came up with a new strategy to aid Dave. The Boston braintrust decided to pressure the aging Robertson hard with defensive ace Don Chaney while he brought the ball upcourt.
And then once Milwaukee was into its halfcourt offense, coach Tom Heinsohn had Paul Silas, Havlicek and others also double down and help while Cowens fronted and battled Jabbar for position.
After he was told about the change in defensive strategy, Dave would relate years later in an interview that he felt like saying, "Yes! I am finally going to get some help on this guy."
After having the redhead go one-on-one for six games with the much bigger man who was the total focal point of their offense, Jabbar had averaged almost 34 points per game, so the Celtic brass felt it had to try something.
By not having to expend as much energy defending the 7-2 Jabbar alone, it seemed as if Cowens had been unchained and energized for the decisive contest.
On offense, the muscular Cowens used his superior speed and quickness to take the slower Jabbar out on the floor and drive by him, taking advantage of Kareem's relative lack of lateral quickness.
The high-leaping, aggressive Cowens won the opening jump over Jabbar and tapped it it to Havlicek, who fed a cutting Chaney perfectly for a layup that set an immediate, positive tone in the contest for the Celtics.
As time ran out in the first period, Dave bombed a 25-footer from the right side at the buzzer that went straight in to give Boston a 22-20 lead.
The Celtics lengthened the lead late in the half as their defense stymied Jabbar and Robertson. Dave triggered the vaunted Celtic fast break with a defensive rebound and airborne outlet pass that led to a 16-footer by Don Nelson.
Shortly afterward, Cowens nailed consecutive foul line jumpers that gave the visitors a 53-40 intermission edge. Their defensive strategy, cooked up between games six and seven by Celtic patriarch Red Auerbach, Heinsohn and the legendary Bob Cousy, was working almost to perfection.
Robertson, who had played for Cousy in Cincinnati before their falling out led to the Big O's trade to Milwaukee, was hounded into perhaps the worst playoff game of his career at a very inopportune time.
If nothing else, the all-court pressure put on by the quicker Celtics rushed the Bucks and took vital seconds off the shot clock, forcing hurried decisions and field goal tries. With veteran leader and playmaker Robertson flustered, the Buck offense floundered.
As a result, scoring machine Jabbar was amazingly held without a single point in the entire second stanza and for half of the third period. This was a major drought when one realizes that Kareem came into game seven averaging his number per outing in the 1974 playoffs (33).
…
At the other end, Boston closed the door with a clever bit of body control and quick reactions. Cowens missed a half hook in the lane that richocheted off Jabbar's hands to a nearly-prone Westphal, who was just getting up off the hardwood after being floored while setting a screen.
Paul then hung in the air as he looked to shoot a short jumper over the looming 7-2 Buck center. But at the last second, he double-clutched and instead tossed a beautifully improvised short alley-oop pass to Cowens past Jabbar. Dave caught the ball in the air on the right side of the lane and cleverly kissed it in off glass before Kareem could recover. That was the final nail in the Milwaukee coffin.
…
Havlicek, who enjoyed a great series, was named Finals MVP even though he tallied a modest 16 points on six of 20 shooting in the decisive contest.
His second fourth quarter three-point play on a foul line jumper as he was hit in the stomach capped a decisive 11-0 spurt that put the game well out of reach, 98-79.
But the game seven MVP was definitely Big Red. The final box score showed Cowens with game-high totals of 28 points and 14 rebounds, compared to 26 and 13 for Jabbar.
Yet the considerable numbers did not show his great intangible contribution, as well. Or how much energy the fiery redhead had supplied his team. Nor how his defense had helped Kareem wear down and fade. He sank just six of 11 free throws in the game and went scoreless for over a third of the game in the crucial middle section when Boston took command.
Or how Cowens had ignited the deadly Celtic transition game with his defensive rebounding and quick outlet bullets, often firing his passes in midair while coming down with the carom.
…
Due in large part to the scrambling defensive strategy of Boston, Jabbar only took 21 shots in the decisive seventh contest, six below his series average for attempts to that point.
He also converted only 10 field goals after making 14.5 baskets per contest over the first six games - well below his 54 percent shooting accuracy to that point in the title series.
…
The grueling style of play that the speedy 1970's Celtics employed, in concert with a short bench and going deep into the playoffs each year (and thus having shorter off-seasons), had started to take a toll on the club. Plus, team captain Havlicek and sixth man Don Nelson were each 36.
In 1976, a grizzled Boston squad fought its way to the Finals despite a foot injury to Havlicek. It was the 13th Celtic championship series appearance in 20 years, and the last before the Larry Bird era.
…
It was Cowens who took over and scored seven points in a clutch 9-4 Celtic spurt that clinched the crown.
Despite being plagued with five fouls, the redhead gambled and came up with the biggest play of the game. As Adams drove along the right side of the lane, Dave dangerously reached in and poked the ball away from the Rookie of the Year, lunging to tip the loose sphere away from Adams.
He then snatched up the loose ball and dribbled, or more accurately roared, 80 feet upcourt at top speed on a 2 on 1 fast break, a runaway red-headed center locomotive.
As he approached the basket, the Celtic center crossed over to the right side and gave a slight head fake to freeze defender Heard. Dave then laid in a twisting backhanded layup over his shoulder while being fouled. He cashed in the free throw to give Boston a 71-67 lead and a huge momentum swing.
After a Phoenix score, Dave sealed Adams outside the low block and took a perfectly timed top-side feed from Charlie Scott before converting a right-handed layin for a 73-69 advantage.
Cowens then forced a bad miss by Adams by hotly contesting his 15-footer. Adams later canned two foul shots to cut the lead back to two. Yet Havlicek swished a clutch 18-footer from the left wing to make it 75-71.
After a Westphal miss, Dave took an entry pass and spun quickly along the right baseline with his trademark move past Adams for a pretty layup. The pet move gave Boston a little breathing room with a 77-71 margin at the 3:29 mark.
White banked in a tough right side runner and added a free throw to stretch the lead to nine, and it was all over but the shouting as Boston ultimately held on to win, 87-80.
After the final buzzer sounded, a tired Cowens hugged retiring teammate Nelson as they strode off the court as champions for the last time. For Nellie, it was a satisfying fifth ring after being released by the Lakers over a decade earlier.
With White struggling and Hondo hurt, it was clearly the clutch late offensive burst from Cowens that capped banner number 13. His aggressive, all-out defense also led to a drought of over five minutes without a basket for the Suns down the stretch.
Even though Dave scored 21 points in the decisive win, paced the defense and led all players in rebounds during the series while averaging 20.5 ppg, teammate JoJo White (21.7 ppg) was named Finals MVP.
Yet in true Cowens fashion, Dave probably didn't care that much, as long as Boston won. He was simply about winning, an undersized center who won on great athleticism (strength, speed, quickness and jumping ability), high basketball intelligence, skill, and a burning desire as bright as his red mane.
"There is no player with greater desire than Dave Cowens," said CBS commentator and fiery Hall of Famer Rick Barry during the 1976 Finals.
A powerful leaper, Cowens frequently won jump balls against much taller centers like Jabbar and an older Chamberlain, and used great positioning to frustrate Kareem and occasionally block his shots as well by forcing him to turn back to his right shoulder, away from his patented hook.
Back then a center jump ball was held at the start of each quarter, and if that rule seems antiquated, consider that the original rules up through the 1930's required that there be a center jump after every basket. So each quarter jump ball could be a key extra possession gained.
As Havlicek, who played the first seven seasons of his career with the great Bill Russell and then his final eight with Cowens, the 1970-71 co-Rookie of the Year, once said - "no one ever did more for the Celtics than Dave Cowens."
In the post-game six locker room TV interviews with CBS, Havlicek reinforced this claim. "We were able to keep Dave on the floor (not foul out), and that made the difference," said Hondo.
Unfortunately, Dave's all-out style and annual deep playoff runs eventually contributed to his body breaking down by the time he reached his early 30's.
…
Heinsohn, who after the death of Red Auerbach assumed the mantel of Mr. Celtic after 50-plus years as star player, championship coach and team announcer, called his 1970's Boston teams "the quickest of all Celtic clubs."
As such he designed a revolutionary point center/forward type of up-tempo offense to take advantage of the extraordinary blend of skills, athleticism and desire of his speedy red-headed center and Havlicek, as well as the sharpshooting White.
Those Celtics did not have a true point guard. White, Chaney and Havlicek shared the ballhandling duties, while Cowens often directed the offense from the top of the key with his passing, driving and shooting ability.
Really hoping this will be the end of Cowens’ slide. He will immediately go to the top of my ballot once successfully nominated.
Gervin has the distinction of sustained functional longevity (a decade of postseason play as his team’s lead scorer) and in-era superstardom, making him my only serious consideration among this group.
After Cowens, the next three names on my board are Isiah, Hayes, and Mourning. Isiah seems like the easiest case right now. His passing gets overshadowed by Magic, but I think he has a strong argument as a top three on-ball creator of the 20th century. Captained consistently potent postseason offences, with something like an average +5 relative mark throughout his entire postseason prime. With his overall significance to the sport, I am very comfortable trying to induct him into the top 60 — and for my personal list, he has been a mainstay at #50.
Induction Vote: Pau Gasol Finally! I think we're way overdue to have him eligible.
I find it hard to believe that a guy who: *had a mostly-durable 18-year career (ALL 18 years at least fair/useful/playable), peaking as an All-NBA level player; **was probably at least a borderline or fringe All-Star level player (like at least top 25-30 in the league) for literally 15 seasons; ***was Robin on 2 title teams (3-4 contenders); ****is 32nd all-time in career rs WS (tied for 43rd all-time in playoffs), and 30th since 1973 in rs VORP (38th in playoffs).....
.....took until the mid-50s to even get on the ballot. The only guys ahead of him in rs WS are Dan Issel (weaker era [some in ABA], and notably weak defensive guy), and the guy I'm nominating [Robert Parish]. And there are only six guys not yet inducted ahead of him in playoff WS (one of them is Robert Horry, fwiw; another is Horace Grant, and another is Al Horford......three guys for whom I think most would agree have no case above Pau). The ONLY guy ahead of him in VORP [since 1973]---barely, but just 0.4---is Vince Carter. There are only four guys not yet inducted ahead of him in career playoff VORP (and again, one of them is Robert Horry; another is Horford).
McHale's inducted at #48, iirc, though I have a hard time making the case [to myself] for McHale > Pau, given Pau's superior passing, turnover economy, rebounding, and meaningful longevity (all occurring in what is likely a marginally better league, too). Similar individual accolades and team accomplishments to McHale, as well. I hope Pau doesn't have long to wait to be inducted.
Alternate vote: Joel Embiid (I guess; considering Gervin, too, though will stay with Gervin and his higher peak for now)
For purposes of any potential run-off, I rank them Gasol > (Embiid > Gervin) > Thurmond > Arizin. Could see flip-flopping Gervin and Embiid, though. Will make a decision there if needed.
NOMINATION: Robert Parish
Alternate nomination: Isiah Thomas Had made some arguments/discussion about him previously. Will try to resurrect that, copy/paste or whatever later.
I think Chauncey Billups also needs some talk at this point (could see switching to him over Isiah, in fact).
Vote: Nate Thurmond Alt vote: Joel Embiid Nomination: Dave Cowens
Nate Thurmond
When you watch Thurmond play, you can see his seemingly innate ability to read the game and anticipate opponents' moves/movement. The offensive schemes at the time that he played called for a certain type of defense, but I think that he would’ve also been great defensively in an open space and pace game because of his high basketball, IQ and understanding of opponents’ strategies that allow him to disrupt offensive actions opponent offensive actions. His strength and agility allowed him to guard players across multiple positions, making him a versatile defensive force. Then there was his relentless motor and as has been discussed before, any player with the motor like that combined with talent is a massive plus player, which the data that we have seems to bear out:
Joel Embiid
I think by the time we do this again, Embiid will have shot up the rankings as a two-way impact player, who is getting better as a playmaker, and can completely dominate a game with 30 minutes worth of play. Imagine a player who can draw fouls at the rate that Shaquille O’Neal did, but shoot those free throws better than Michael Jordan did. But for now, I still have to put Nate Thurmond ahead of him. We obviously have concerns about playoffs efficacy, but you’re going to have a person here who overall looks to be in the top eight after this season in JE’s set.
Dave Cowens:
Cowens played a modern game back on the ‘70s—a highly skilled, high motor, unselfish player who did things all over the court.
—He could challenge on guards on the perimeter —He had endless motor that would be even more effective when playing shorter minutes (pace in his day was fast so he was running up down the court all game while playing heavy minutes) —Ran in transition extremely well —Was really strong and could defend inside even when young and looked more wiry than solid —Great hands —Great positioner for rebounds, had great rebound instincts —Not the greatest rim protector but did contest shots well and had good length —Could dribble and position himself for that beautiful lefty jumpshot —Was a very good free throw shooter and midrange shooter who, I think, could develop a three point shot for today’s game —Had tremendous upcourt instincts perfect for the game at the time. I love watching highlights of him grab rebounds and turn his head to look upcourt before he even lands with the ball —Very good passer, great outlet passer
Ray Allen gets in for longevity. And to be fair, not that many players left with 10+ years at an all star level.
Still, how I’m weighting peak vs longevity, I’d much rather have: Vote: Joel Embiid. Given a 5 year peak, he’s by far the best player available.
Alternate: Arizin. Throwing the 50’s some love. Comparing him across era’s is silly, but within his era, he was a beast.
Once again, Nomination:Mutombo. If Thurmond is nominated, I don’t see how Mutombo is worse. He’s similar level defensively, and both are not here on this list for their offensive games. At least Mutombo had a few years of good rTS%.
Vote: Pau Gasol Yet another guy who I nominated waaaay after Embiid only to find I liked his all-time case a lot. If we look at him in the playoffs for the same ages Embiid has been in the league (through age 29), he has a BPM of 5.1 and an on/off of +10.3 in the playoffs to Embiid's 3.5 BPM and +10.4 on/off. However, unlike Embiid, Gasol played in the first 114 playoff games his team qualified for, not missing one until age 34. Also unlike Embiid, Gasol had incredible longevity playing 45,826 minutes between RS and postseason compared to 15,142 minutes for Embiid. That's more than three times as many total minutes as Embiid while arguably playing better on a per minute basis in the postseason through their respective primes.
Gasol is top 50 all-time in points, top 30 in rebounds, and top 25 in blocks. He ranks 32nd in career win shares and 30th in career VORP. And those are all regular season stats. He's one of the top all-time playoff risers as his career marks of a 3.6 BPM and a +3.3 on/off go up to a 4.1 and a +7.9 on/off in the postseason when things matter most. He has 2 rings as a key contributor including one where he was arguably more valuable than Kobe Bryant.
Alternate: Joel Embiid Tremendous all-time regular season prime with little bits and pieces of matching it in the playoffs. One complete playoff run playing up to his potential and at least making the Finals could make a huge difference for him.
Nominate: Vince Carter Was getting dangerously close to nominating Isiah which I never would have dreamed I'd end up doing, but Vince matches Isiah's playoff peak with much greater longevity. If we look at both through age 29 missing Isiah's disastrous final season, here's what we get for postseason numbers:
So even looking at Isiah's best window (postseason prime) Vince still beats him, and of course Vince has tremendous longevity. He's 45th all-time in WS, 28th all-time in VORP (led the NBA in 00/01), and 23rd all-time in points. He had a positive on/off in each of his first 16 seasons, averaging +9.2 over that span. Box, impact, longevity, he's really a complete candidate at a point in the list where most candidates excel in certain areas, but are lacking in several others. I don't see any reason why Pau and Vince couldn't follow in Ray Allen's footsteps of being inducted immediately after nomination.
Will be watching pau G tape later on today to create a basis for opinion.
I mean honestly I’m a bit sad of George & Paul slipping through the attention span of us for so long… The same can be said for Embiid as well. Some guy said the next time this project is done Embiid will shoot up in the rankings and I think there’s a justification for that opinion.
Probably gonna bring it down to Embiid vs Pau G. I’ve watched Thurmond play and I don’t think we’re talking about similar levels of ability even if they have similar levels of impact
WintaSoldier1 wrote:I’ve watched Thurmond play and I don’t think we’re talking about similar levels of ability even if they have similar levels of impact
WintaSoldier1 wrote:I’ve watched Thurmond play and I don’t think we’re talking about similar levels of ability even if they have similar levels of impact
What are your thoughts on Thurmond?
In reference to my analysis of him during #51
WintaSoldier1 wrote:Thurmond is a weird person to analyze…
The only full games of him are his Cleveland days where he was a shell of himself( Last 2 years of his career playing 20 MPG)
The highlights showcase his ability but it looks generally unimpressive… Offensively he exists as a clean up man on rebounds and he is a decent connective tissue for the offense that primarily functioned out the elbow. He really hits guys on time and rhythm to get the early DHO/2 man game going but the offense never hits him on the roll they just prefer to throw it up to the rim and either make the layup or let Thurmond clean up.
Defensively you couldn’t bump your defender back then and Thurmond is just so long and mobile below 15 feet there wasn’t much you could in all honesty to get him off of you.
The weird aspect for me is when he’s playing it’s like they’re playing against the school bully. It’s so much ball watching on these tapes as Thurmond just casually goes to a spot and nobody else will do anything but what him get a rebound/score. It’s not like he has elite tracking or anything sometimes he will just run into the paint of 5 people nobody else will jump and he’ll score. The other times he gets a opportunity to are when he’ll set a screen in the 2 man game off the elbow(on the empty side) both defenders direct their attention to the ball handler, they’ll throw it up at the rim and Nate will get a tip in which is basically a throw at the basket assist for him. He’s also got an absolute engine on his arm he’ll go for the Chino Hills Touchdown Style Pass off the Inbound or Rebound pretty often. That has some value to me.
I mean if you wanna chalk up the phenomenon on the court to him being such a bully that nobody wants to play with the guy in the given footage I want to see to something that he is doing on the floor then sure you could vote for him in a couple spots??? But in general I wasn’t very impressed by his ability he seems more keyed into stopping his man( who doesn’t even want the ball) then protecting the rim. He switches onto anyone who sets a screen he’s just a flat out heat seeker on defense, but isn’t very astute about his surroundings.
He’s an athletic beast, but his basketball instincts just aren’t there… Watched a solid amount of tape and I haven’t seen him slide over to contest or anything defensively he only comes over if you’re his man and when you’re his man he’ll seek you. Watching him against Cowens and if you know how to take your time and aren’t afraid of his athletic ability, you can punish his lack of discipline/fundamental understanding of basketball.
But overall for him to be nominated( as someone who nominated him) I can see how preemptive this choice was at this point early on.
I’d probably vote Draymond in over him. I can’t see a real way he gets off the ballot for a while.
At first when I was watching his highlight reel(Mostly low-post arsenal) I had came to the conclusion Pau was a difference maker as a player but he wasn't exactly a "Game Changer" and for the most part I hold these players we're voting for now in esteem to how they can change the game and influence the players around them. Pau's nice he's really just fishing to bump you off your spot and then get into a drop/spin or baby hook, and occasionally he'll fade just to keep you honest. But I failed to see a point of emphasis in his offensive scoring arsenal where I felt like if you showed me the offensive arsenal of this guy and said he was the 55th best basketball player ever... I'd be unimpressed.
His Post-Arsenal can be described as( Pace + Touch), in a fashion that's kinda similar to Jokic but less fluid and more brook lopez type of movement then Jokic's footwork.
Although, I then watched some footage of his playmaking abilities and I felt like THAT was a game-changing aspect I could get behind, the real question for me came is how much was he able to utilize this throughout the entirety of a game? Even if it is a game changing ability, how often does he get to use this a game? Maybe, 6-7 times a game and how much offensive pressure does that put on the defensive mentally to account for Pau's playmaking abilities? Pau also seemed to "call his number" at times on the low block and kinda forgo the game-changing ability(in playmaking).
I watched some defense and he's just not super talented... I mean I'd like some perspective on how good he was defensively from you guys but it just seems like he lacked a defensive instinct and largely was a reactionary defender who took advg of his size in close confrontation who was liable to getting worked in the mid-post by anyone with a solid first step.
Overall I just think Pau Gasol is kinda the best player you could be without having a game-defining "instinct or talent" that seperates him, he continually sticks to his game and never shifts outside of the box of what he could accomplish. Now if the criteria you'd like to use is because he was VERY GOOD for such a long period of time he should get the spot(I won't call him GREAT, if we're using the contemporaries on this list as a reference to what being "GREAT" is)... I mean, I don't expect to vote for Pau for a while... I wonder what the list will look like once we get to 63 or so, I feel like I'll consider him then mentally but then again I'm unsure of what it will look like once we get there.
penbeast0 wrote:Vote: Joel Embiid Best of the bigs on both ends and in a tougher era. Multiple MVP; main concern is limited games and a lack of a powerful playoff run.
Alternate vote: Nate Thurmond -- my trouble with Thurmond is that I think Bobby Jones was probably more impactful (less on defense but making it up on offense) and no one else is even thinking of him, but . . .from Arizin's era to Thurmond's is one of the NBA's big jumps and I think Nate just got unlucky being in the same era as Russ and Wilt to some degree. Ray Allen just wasn't that special an offensive player, more very good than great, and nothing to write home about on defense, Gervin was a great scorer for his day but had with little playmaking and little defensive effort. Convince me that either Allen or Gervin had stronger impact numbers rather than just being scorers and I'll switch my vote as I'm not a big Thurmond fan.
Nominate: Bobby Jones. More than a decade of straight 1st team All-Defense votes combined with high efficiency, though not high volume scoring, and good playmaking. Not a great rebounder for his position but could play 2-5 at either end. Probably the greatest glue guy in NBA history and in his time where he was the best player on his team (75 and 76 for example), his team was the best in the league both years though they came up short in the playoffs. The most 1st team All-Defense awards, best player on two Nugget teams that had the best record in the NBA (though both came up short in the playoffs), great efficiency without being just an inside scorer, excellent passer, decent offensive rebounder, defensively good at blocking out rather than getting the board, good shot blocker for a forward, good steals, could play up to the 5 or down to the 2, limited minutes because of a physical condition but probably the greatest glue guy in the history of the NBA.
Basically a more consistent version of Draymond Green defensively with efficient offense and a great attitude but in a weaker era. Another take from a previous project:
LA Bird wrote:....
Bobby Jones Low minutes played is the main reason why Jones isn't ranked higher but I should point out Ginobili played pretty much the same amount of minutes and was voted in 15+ rounds ago. Jones leading Denver to the #1 record in his two ABA seasons (61 win rate) while averaging ~33 minutes a game is rarely mentioned as he seemed to be more remembered for his 6th man role in his later years. Offensively, he has one of the highest career TS% (60.7) and his assists (3.5 per 36), assist/turnover (~1.34) are both great for power forwards. Jones's scoring peaked at 19 ppg per 36 in 81 so it's not like his scoring efficiency was only high because of selective shots and extremely low usage like a DeAndre Jordan. Defensively, Jones is one of the best help defenders of all time and his 10 All-Defensive first team selections is a record that's likely to stand for a very long time. His raw plus minus stats are elite and will probably look even better if we had stats from his Nuggets seasons:
Alt Alonzo Mourning: Zo is a better or equivalent scorer than Reed, Cowens, Parish, Mutombo, etc., a shotblocker equal to Mutombo and stronger defensively than Parish, Cowens, or Reed, played more games in his prime, and is probably the best of the 4. I say probably because his passing ability was a major problem especially compared to Cowens or Reed and he never really had the great playoff success in his prime of the others (Mutombo excepted).
Would you still vote for Embiid if Jones were an option? If so, I suggest nominating Luka. He’s the only player with 4+ First Team selections not yet nominated and who wasn’t born in the 20s. Similar peak to Joel with only 62 fewer regular season games and a deeper playoff run with arguably less around him. Not a two-player like Embiid and Jones but a truly great offensive game that has more than held up in the playoffs.
WintaSoldier1 wrote:I’ve watched Thurmond play and I don’t think we’re talking about similar levels of ability even if they have similar levels of impact
What are your thoughts on Thurmond?
In reference to my analysis of him during #51
WintaSoldier1 wrote:Thurmond is a weird person to analyze…
The only full games of him are his Cleveland days where he was a shell of himself( Last 2 years of his career playing 20 MPG)
The highlights showcase his ability but it looks generally unimpressive… Offensively he exists as a clean up man on rebounds and he is a decent connective tissue for the offense that primarily functioned out the elbow. He really hits guys on time and rhythm to get the early DHO/2 man game going but the offense never hits him on the roll they just prefer to throw it up to the rim and either make the layup or let Thurmond clean up.
Defensively you couldn’t bump your defender back then and Thurmond is just so long and mobile below 15 feet there wasn’t much you could in all honesty to get him off of you.
The weird aspect for me is when he’s playing it’s like they’re playing against the school bully. It’s so much ball watching on these tapes as Thurmond just casually goes to a spot and nobody else will do anything but what him get a rebound/score. It’s not like he has elite tracking or anything sometimes he will just run into the paint of 5 people nobody else will jump and he’ll score. The other times he gets a opportunity to are when he’ll set a screen in the 2 man game off the elbow(on the empty side) both defenders direct their attention to the ball handler, they’ll throw it up at the rim and Nate will get a tip in which is basically a throw at the basket assist for him. He’s also got an absolute engine on his arm he’ll go for the Chino Hills Touchdown Style Pass off the Inbound or Rebound pretty often. That has some value to me.
I mean if you wanna chalk up the phenomenon on the court to him being such a bully that nobody wants to play with the guy in the given footage I want to see to something that he is doing on the floor then sure you could vote for him in a couple spots??? But in general I wasn’t very impressed by his ability he seems more keyed into stopping his man( who doesn’t even want the ball) then protecting the rim. He switches onto anyone who sets a screen he’s just a flat out heat seeker on defense, but isn’t very astute about his surroundings.
He’s an athletic beast, but his basketball instincts just aren’t there… Watched a solid amount of tape and I haven’t seen him slide over to contest or anything defensively he only comes over if you’re his man and when you’re his man he’ll seek you. Watching him against Cowens and if you know how to take your time and aren’t afraid of his athletic ability, you can punish his lack of discipline/fundamental understanding of basketball.
But overall for him to be nominated( as someone who nominated him) I can see how preemptive this choice was at this point early on.
I’d probably vote Draymond in over him. I can’t see a real way he gets off the ballot for a while.
I have posted more Thurmond games from his Warriors years, some of which are full, so I hoped you watched a bit more since then. Or maybe you did, but you didn't change your mind?
WintaSoldier1 wrote:Thurmond is a weird person to analyze…
The only full games of him are his Cleveland days where he was a shell of himself( Last 2 years of his career playing 20 MPG)
The highlights showcase his ability but it looks generally unimpressive… Offensively he exists as a clean up man on rebounds and he is a decent connective tissue for the offense that primarily functioned out the elbow. He really hits guys on time and rhythm to get the early DHO/2 man game going but the offense never hits him on the roll they just prefer to throw it up to the rim and either make the layup or let Thurmond clean up.
Defensively you couldn’t bump your defender back then and Thurmond is just so long and mobile below 15 feet there wasn’t much you could in all honesty to get him off of you.
The weird aspect for me is when he’s playing it’s like they’re playing against the school bully. It’s so much ball watching on these tapes as Thurmond just casually goes to a spot and nobody else will do anything but what him get a rebound/score. It’s not like he has elite tracking or anything sometimes he will just run into the paint of 5 people nobody else will jump and he’ll score. The other times he gets a opportunity to are when he’ll set a screen in the 2 man game off the elbow(on the empty side) both defenders direct their attention to the ball handler, they’ll throw it up at the rim and Nate will get a tip in which is basically a throw at the basket assist for him. He’s also got an absolute engine on his arm he’ll go for the Chino Hills Touchdown Style Pass off the Inbound or Rebound pretty often. That has some value to me.
I mean if you wanna chalk up the phenomenon on the court to him being such a bully that nobody wants to play with the guy in the given footage I want to see to something that he is doing on the floor then sure you could vote for him in a couple spots??? But in general I wasn’t very impressed by his ability he seems more keyed into stopping his man( who doesn’t even want the ball) then protecting the rim. He switches onto anyone who sets a screen he’s just a flat out heat seeker on defense, but isn’t very astute about his surroundings.
He’s an athletic beast, but his basketball instincts just aren’t there… Watched a solid amount of tape and I haven’t seen him slide over to contest or anything defensively he only comes over if you’re his man and when you’re his man he’ll seek you. Watching him against Cowens and if you know how to take your time and aren’t afraid of his athletic ability, you can punish his lack of discipline/fundamental understanding of basketball.
But overall for him to be nominated( as someone who nominated him) I can see how preemptive this choice was at this point early on.
I’d probably vote Draymond in over him. I can’t see a real way he gets off the ballot for a while.
I have posted more Thurmond games from his Warriors years, some of which are full, so I hoped you watched a bit more since then. Or maybe you did, but you didn't change your mind?
My analysis in general is pessimistic in nature, but the more I criticize the more fond I grow of a player as it’s my own wicked way of “appreciating a player” in their fullest capacity.
I haven’t watched too much more of Thurmond, for the most part I’m watching film on the newest nominee and comparing; I think I’d go Thurmond over Pau G.… But that’s about it, maybe over George Gervin but I think I have a stylistic preference for him admittedly.
I’ve seen the rhetoric about his Floor-Raising yet ceiling capping abilities and I can partially get behind the idea that phenomena does exist. I couldn’t find the post where I talked about him, but he just feels like a “Boss Level NPC”… But when you bring a NPC as your companion to a fight in any video game at some level their lack of “intellect”[as in limitations of ability] will be exploited by opposing players.
That’s basically how I feel about Thurmond, As of now; I can watch more tape admittedly I’m not doing too much but I’m uncertain of how much my opinion may be swayed.
i dont really know who to vote for but good args have been made for wb impact and he was maybe #1 on better teams than dwights and won an mvp. drexler teams also werent as good and the arg for him isnt that good. wb vs kobe is dumb but idt drexler is kobe so i guess ill go
VOTE
1. BUTLER
led 2 final teams and winta made a good arg for him. min also only made the playoffs when he was there and sixers werent as good when he left even after adding ppl like harden
2. NATE THUMOND idk much bout him but eni and owly making good args. maybe should have voted earlier. outperforming russ celtics and got super high wowy so. Also the Kareem stopper. embid won mvp but he always hurt in the po's. idk why walton aint here when he played more.
imma nom
Walton chip and mvp and swept kareem and played more minutes than embid. also crazy impact
[quote="Doctor MJ wrote:Our system is now as follows:
I have no intention of continuing to vote and participate actively in this project, due to life/time constraints....however:
1. You guys are (almost, all) far too focused on offense, while neglecting ATG defensive players.
2. The Recency Bias here is almost paranormal and resounding.
Nominate: Nate Thurmond
Quotes about Thurmond:
"Wilt Chamberlain sat in the airport terminal in San Francisco awaiting a flight to Boston. “He’s the toughest center I have to play,” he said. “He can rebound, play defense, and you’ve got to worry about him scoring, too. He’s a helluva center, and I don’t think he gets the recognition he deserves.”
"Nate was one of the great centers to ever play the game, and I was privileged to call him a teammate and dear friend" -Rick Barry
"Both Abdul-Jabbar and Chamberlain have gone on record saying they felt Thurmond was their toughest adversary. “He plays me better than anybody ever has,” Abdul-Jabbar told Basketball Digest when he was in his prime. “He’s tall, has real long arms, and most of all he’s agile and strong.” In an article in Sport, Abdul-Jabbar also said, “When I score on Nate, I know I’ve done something. He sweats and he wants you to sweat, too.”
--He was 45th in the NBA's 50 at 50 (October, 1996)
--He was 49th in the NBA's 75 at 75 (December, 2022)
Moreover, since most people are-clearly-& almost completely- stats and "impact" obsessed here; here's a bit of my empirical research:
1. Thurmond held opposing HOF Centers to a .422 FG% across 524 games in the regular season plus playoffs. That's a ~15% reduction in FG%.
2. Russell: .416 vs. .464 FG% (757 games vs. HOF Centers). That's a 10% reduction in FG%.
3. Chamberlain: .434 vs .469 FG% (828 games). That's a 7.5% reduction in FG%.
4. Kareem: .493 vs .501 FG% (659 games). That's a 1.5% reduction in FG%.
5. Hakeem: .504 vs .484 FG% (359 games). 6% reduction in FG%.
6. Shaq: .445 vs .513 FG% (224 games). 13% reduction in FG%.
Thurmond's defensive rating (93) from 1973-1974 through 1976-1977 was third best in the NBA among players with 250+ games played. He was also well past his prime, ANCIENT for that era (ages 32-35) and, also, injury riddled.
Vote for #55: Paul Arizin. Entering the league in 1950 when the game was based on 2-hand set shots and very slow offensive sets, Arizin emphasized a fairly new weapon that continues to be a mainstay in the NBA today: the jump shot. In addition to his shooting proficiency (led the league in FG% once and finished in the top five in TS% 5 times), he was also known as a great leaper, slick ballhandling and tough defense. And while he wasn't an elite rebounder at only 6-4, he still managed to finish in the top twenty in rebounds/game 6 times. And while he doesn't have great longevity consistent with most players of his era with the much more limited knowledge of nutrition, physical training and sports medicine compared to later eras, I do not penalize him for his 2 years of military service during his prime.
Alternate vote: George Gervin. Outstanding scorer who led the league in scoring 4 times (only Jordan, Wilt and KD have more scoring titles and tied with Kobe and Harden). Named All NBA/ABA nine times (5 of them to the First Team), played in 12 straight All Star games, and scored double figures in 407 consecutive games. Not a very good defender although he was a very good defensive rebounder and shot blocker for a guard. And the eye test tells me that he had the best floating finger roll off a drive that I've ever seen (Wilt's was off a post-up, not a drive!).
Nomination: Dave Cowens. Terrific all-around big who could score (averaged around 20 ppg in his prime), rebound (5 years in the top ten in trb%), pass (averaged around 4.5 assists/game in his prime), and defend (three-time All Defensive Team, one on the first team). Two rings. Named MVP in 73 and while I do not at all feel this was the correct vote, being in the top 4 four times shows how highly regarded he was in his own time. While he wasn't a great pure shooter, he had 4 seasons with a TS+ over 100 so he wasn't really inefficient. While some may have had more sheer talent, no one, in any era, would ever out-hustle Big Red when he was on the court.
Alternate nomination: Bobby Jones. Part of me keeps thinking this is too early for him given his lack of longevity and durability. But I'm pretty sure that I would take Jones and his reduced minutes over Draymond if I were drafting a team, so seeing Green get selected convinced me to consider him. Gotta admit that there is bias here since Jones is one of my favorite players of all time. Despite averaging less than 30 minutes/game during his NBA career, he still has ten All Defensive First Team awards and one Second Team selection (in his second to last season averaging only 20 minutes/game). He was nicknamed The Secretary of Defense for good reason. He didn't shoot much but he was highly efficient, leading the league in FG% three times and finishing in the top 20 in TS% nine times. But as good as he was at playing basketball, how he conducted himself may have been even more admirable. He was always a gentleman with honor; he didn't drink, smoke or use profanity, always raised his hand when called for a foul - even telling a ref who mistakenly called a foul on a teammate that he was the one who actually committed the foul, even though that was his fifth foul! When teammates tried to show him ways to "cheat" by grabbing an opponent's jersey or committing a foul when the ref wasn't looking, he adamantly refused to do so. He would reply "if I have to play defense by holding on, that's when I quit." Teammate Dr J described Jones as "a player who's totally selfless, who runs like a deer, jumps like a gazelle, plays with his head and heart each night, and then walks away from the court as if nothing happened." And former teammate Charles Barkley said "if everyone in the world was like Bobby Jones, the world wouldn't have any problems."
My vote is for Joel Embiid - God like regular season player but hasn't quite put it together in the post season yet. Hard to say if his game is legitimately not transferable or if injuries are playing a factor in his decline. Either way, it seems like as a scorer he is on another level from nearly everyone left while still being a versatile player.
My alternate vote is for Paul Arizin - I'm not as high on Paul as I used to be but he still was more or less the best player in the league at one point. He won the title as "the guy" and did so playing very well. Paul was alright as an older player, ups and downs for sure. Very impressive player to look at film compared to his competition, seems like he was way ahead of his time. I'd favor him over the defensive specialist like Thurmond/Payton.
Enigma made a lot of good points with Thurmond which reinstated my faith in voting for him. I'll likely switch back to Nate if Paul gets in.
Finally got around to reading some Butler arguments. I'm boosting him up my ranks but not to the point where I'd vote for him yet.
Pau Gasol - He's a case of a player who was good for a very long time but not truly great. This type of player doesn't score well on my criteria. I'm almost always going to favor a guy who is best in the world over someone who was not in that tier. Arizin and Embiid fit that description, Pau was more of a borderline top ten guy, albeit his skill set was under utilized. (this description was literally the same as before but I just replaced Pau's name with Ray Allen's)
Gervin - I've never been convinced that Gervin was a great player, so hopefully this time around is when it happens. Just seems like such a one dimensional player, and I don't know if his scoring is enough to overcome all those negatives AND be placed above the top 60 best players. I'm incline to think that he likely gave up a lot on defense - I know someone is gonna be like "ACTUALLY HE WASNT THAT BAD and it's like come on...he literally said he doesn't play defense lol.
HeartBreakKid wrote:Pau Gasol - He's a case of a player who was good for a very long time but not truly great. This type of player doesn't score well on my criteria. I'm almost always going to favor a guy who is best in the world over someone who was not in that tier. Arizin and Embiid fit that description, Pau was more of a borderline top ten guy, albeit his skill set was under utilized. (this description was literally the same as before but I just replaced Pau's name with Ray Allen's)
I don't necessarily disagree wrt your assessment of Pau Gasol (I think there may have been a year or two ['10 and/or '11] where he was more like top 7-8 player in the league, but otherwise...), but this distills down to our difference in criteria/philosophy.
For me, a solid decade as top 10-15 player is more valuable than one or two years as a top 1-3 player in the league (particularly if the latter took place in a weaker league while the former took place in a strong/competitive league environment).
Re: simply changing the wording that was used for Allen..... Slight derail since he's already in, but imo Ray Allen clearly peaked higher than a "borderline top ten guy".
In '01 I have him somewhere in the 4th-8th best in the league (and leaning toward the upper end of that, personally); 8th is the worst position I can argue him down to..... In a slow and low-scoring era he was averaging 22.0 ppg [tied for 1st on his team] on super-elite shooting efficiency (leading the entire league in TS Add) and was 2nd on the team in apg, yet only 3rd in topg..........this as primary anchor for the #1 offense in the league.
He was 11th in PER, 9th in BPM, and 7th in WS/48......all while being 14th in total minutes played (>38 mpg and not missing a single game). In the playoffs he GOT BETTER, going for 25.1/4.1/6.0 on negligibly BETTER TS% and negligibly FEWER turnovers [just 2.4 per game].......this translated to the 8th-best PER, 5th-best WS/48, and 4th-best BPM of that year's playoffs. And that's despite facing a top-10 defense in all three rounds of the playoffs (and imo comfortably out-playing the league MVP in the ECF).
His RAPM that year is tied for the 6th-best in the league, while playing more rs minutes than everyone who's ahead of him except for Tim Duncan (though he did exceed Duncan in rs + ps minutes; is in fact second only to Iverson in that).
To me, that's more like a borderline top-five season, even if it's the only year this could be said for him.
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