RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #57 (Dave Cowens)

Post #1 » by **Doctor MJ** » Mon Dec 25, 2023 6:25 pm

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. Nomination vote now works the same way.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:

Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Dave Cowens

Pau Gasol

George Gervin

Isiah Thomas

Nate Thurmond

As requested, here's the current list so far along with the historical spreadsheet of previous projects:

Current List
Historical Spreadsheet

LA Bird · Post #2 » by **LA Bird** » Mon Dec 25, 2023 7:33 pm

Vote 1: Nate Thurmond
Vote 2: Isiah Thomas
Nom 1: Alonzo Mourning
Nom 2: Chauncey Billups

Thurmond

Spoiler:

Shining a spotlight on Mourning for nomination because I've seen a few other centers (Walton, Mutombo, Wallace, Reed) getting nomination votes despite weaker arguments overall. Of these players,
• Zo had a better peak than anyone except Walton (Reed is arguable)
• Zo, despite health problems, still had a longer prime than anyone except Mutombo
• Zo had better RAPM numbers than Mutombo/Wallace, better RWOWY than Reed/Mutombo/Wallace, better WOWY than Reed/Wallace. Walton is the only one who beats him in impact metrics but Walton is the WOWY GOAT anyway.
• Zo scored more points than anyone and has almost double the career TS Add of Reed, who is the only other major scorer here
• Zo blocked more shots than anyone except Mutombo
There are individual criteria where you can pick some of the other centers over him but overall, Mourning has the strongest argument across the board of the remaining centers.

Post #3 » by **penbeast0** » Mon Dec 25, 2023 7:59 pm

Vote: George Gervin Mr. One Dimensional scorer but he was very good at that role.

Alt Vote: Nate Thurmond Far from sure of this one. Cowens had more team success but probably less individual impact. Same for Gasol; those 2 rings with Kobe made me struggle to reevaluate that whole team and I came out stronger on both Kobe and Gasol.

Nominate: Bobby Jones. More than a decade of straight 1st team All-Defense votes combined with high efficiency, though not high volume scoring, and good playmaking. Not a great rebounder for his position but could play 2-5 at either end. Probably the greatest glue guy in NBA history and in his time where he was the best player on his team (75 and 76 for example), his team was the best in the league both years though they came up short in the playoffs. The most 1st team All-Defense awards, best player on two Nugget teams that had the best record in the NBA (though both came up short in the playoffs), great efficiency without being just an inside scorer, excellent passer, decent offensive rebounder, defensively good at blocking out rather than getting the board, good shot blocker for a forward, good steals, could play up to the 5 or down to the 2, limited minutes because of a physical condition but probably the greatest glue guy in the history of the NBA.

Alt Nomination: Alonzo Mourning Best big man left from an era where big men were the most important position. Defensive centerpiece, decent scorer, weakness was poor passing.

WintaSoldier1 · Post #4 » by **WintaSoldier1** » Mon Dec 25, 2023 10:16 pm

Yeah this one feels like a STRONG #57 for George G, I just don’t feel like anyone else has the capacity to challenge him for the main spot[ at least for me], Watched IT and at first I considered Cowens over him but I guess IT’s scoring edge probably gives him my ALT

trelos6 · Post #5 » by **trelos6** » Mon Dec 25, 2023 11:13 pm

What we have here is a lot of elite one way players.

Gervin was an elite scorer,

Isiah an elite facilitator,

Cowens with the elite motor,

Thurmond the elite low post defender,

Pau the most versatile player on the list, but I don’t think he was truly elite in any one skill.

Vote: Isiah Thomas. His playmaking and floor leadership carried him and despite his below average efficiency, the teams were defensive in nature, so the scoring wasn’t a big negative. He was also neutral defensively for a point guard.

alt Vote: Pau Gasol. Good enough in multiple aspects of the game to be a strong 2nd option on a couple of title teams.

No point voting for Mutombo until he gets more traction.

Nomination: Willis Reed. A couple of good peak years and solid defensively. Does enough in his prime to get him over everyone listed thus far, except Isiah. (I have him over Pau also)

AEnigma · Post #6 » by **AEnigma** » Tue Dec 26, 2023 12:42 am

VOTE: Dave Cowens
Alternate: George Gervin
NOMINATE: Alonzo Mourning
AltNom: Elvin Hayes

AEnigma wrote:I continue to be confused by the lack of support for Cowens. We have seen titles for Barry and Gilmore give them a relatively secure standing, and I think it is difficult to argue against Cowens as the top player on the 1976 Celtics even if people are split on him versus Havlicek in 1974. His impact is clear, consistently showcasing twenty-win lift on a Celtics team that otherwise looked mediocre (when contending) to bad (when not) without Cowens. And he is very much a sort of precursor to Draymond, nominated several rounds ago, in how he was a somewhat undersized defensive anchor frequently taking a lead playmaking role to make use of his team’s strong off-ball wings.

Those who read my posts toward the end of the Peaks Project have already seen me post this article, but for those who have not, this is one of my favourite accounts of him:

Spoiler:

Cort Reynolds wrote: He may not have been named MVP of the NBA Finals in 1974 or 1976, but undersized Hall of Fame Boston center Dave Cowens was the key force in winning both clinching games of those memorable championship series for the Celtics.

In the 1970's no one played harder for Boston, or anyone else for that matter, with apologies to Jerry Sloan, Norm Van Lier and Dave DeBusschere, than the fiery 6-8.5 redhead.

In game seven of the epic 1974 NBA Finals, the Celtics faced the tall task of beating Milwaukee on the road. Buck center Kareem Abdul-Jabbar was in his youthful prime and enjoyed nearly a six-inch height advantage - which was probably close to a foot when reach is included - over Cowens.

…

The Bucks had forced a seventh game by winning a double overtime classic in Boston just two days earlier, when Jabbar's long running baseline hook over Celtic backup center Hank Finkel gave Milwaukee a see-saw 102-101 victory.

Cowens had fouled out earlier in overtime, or the outcome may well have been different, with the Celtics likely celebrating title number 12 at home.

John Havlicek had traded baskets with the 7-2 Jabbar throughout the final extra session, scoring nine of his 36 points in the second OT, but Kareem got the last shot in.

Yet a hustling play by Cowens that came to epitomize his career happened late in that classic sixth contest. Dave switched off on a pick defensively to cover Robertson, then used his quick hands to poke the ball away from the Hall of Famer.

The speedy center then out-sprinted the 6-5 guard for the loose ball, which rolled into the backcourt. Cowens dove for the ball and slid with it near the sidelines while the loose leather bobbled in and out of his arms. Oscar trailed the play and never left his feet, almost in disbelief at the bigger man's reckless dive.

Cowens left a sweat streak about 10 feet long on the old Garden parquet, probably along with some skin. While the Bucks argued that he never had possession of the ball, the referees correctly ruled that the 24-second clock had nevertheless run out to give Boston the ball.

Not long after, Cowens fouled out with just 13 points on five of 19 shooting, and his absence contributed to the series-tying Buck win. Determined to redeem himself, the proud Celtic star came out firing in game seven.

Boston came up with a new strategy to aid Dave. The Boston braintrust decided to pressure the aging Robertson hard with defensive ace Don Chaney while he brought the ball upcourt.

And then once Milwaukee was into its halfcourt offense, coach Tom Heinsohn had Paul Silas, Havlicek and others also double down and help while Cowens fronted and battled Jabbar for position.

After he was told about the change in defensive strategy, Dave would relate years later in an interview that he felt like saying, "Yes! I am finally going to get some help on this guy."

After having the redhead go one-on-one for six games with the much bigger man who was the total focal point of their offense, Jabbar had averaged almost 34 points per game, so the Celtic brass felt it had to try something.

By not having to expend as much energy defending the 7-2 Jabbar alone, it seemed as if Cowens had been unchained and energized for the decisive contest.

On offense, the muscular Cowens used his superior speed and quickness to take the slower Jabbar out on the floor and drive by him, taking advantage of Kareem's relative lack of lateral quickness.

The high-leaping, aggressive Cowens won the opening jump over Jabbar and tapped it it to Havlicek, who fed a cutting Chaney perfectly for a layup that set an immediate, positive tone in the contest for the Celtics.

As time ran out in the first period, Dave bombed a 25-footer from the right side at the buzzer that went straight in to give Boston a 22-20 lead.

The Celtics lengthened the lead late in the half as their defense stymied Jabbar and Robertson. Dave triggered the vaunted Celtic fast break with a defensive rebound and airborne outlet pass that led to a 16-footer by Don Nelson.

Shortly afterward, Cowens nailed consecutive foul line jumpers that gave the visitors a 53-40 intermission edge. Their defensive strategy, cooked up between games six and seven by Celtic patriarch Red Auerbach, Heinsohn and the legendary Bob Cousy, was working almost to perfection.

Robertson, who had played for Cousy in Cincinnati before their falling out led to the Big O's trade to Milwaukee, was hounded into perhaps the worst playoff game of his career at a very inopportune time.

If nothing else, the all-court pressure put on by the quicker Celtics rushed the Bucks and took vital seconds off the shot clock, forcing hurried decisions and field goal tries. With veteran leader and playmaker Robertson flustered, the Buck offense floundered.

As a result, scoring machine Jabbar was amazingly held without a single point in the entire second stanza and for half of the third period. This was a major drought when one realizes that Kareem came into game seven averaging his number per outing in the 1974 playoffs (33).

…

At the other end, Boston closed the door with a clever bit of body control and quick reactions. Cowens missed a half hook in the lane that richocheted off Jabbar's hands to a nearly-prone Westphal, who was just getting up off the hardwood after being floored while setting a screen.

Paul then hung in the air as he looked to shoot a short jumper over the looming 7-2 Buck center. But at the last second, he double-clutched and instead tossed a beautifully improvised short alley-oop pass to Cowens past Jabbar. Dave caught the ball in the air on the right side of the lane and cleverly kissed it in off glass before Kareem could recover. That was the final nail in the Milwaukee coffin.

…

Havlicek, who enjoyed a great series, was named Finals MVP even though he tallied a modest 16 points on six of 20 shooting in the decisive contest.

His second fourth quarter three-point play on a foul line jumper as he was hit in the stomach capped a decisive 11-0 spurt that put the game well out of reach, 98-79.

But the game seven MVP was definitely Big Red. The final box score showed Cowens with game-high totals of 28 points and 14 rebounds, compared to 26 and 13 for Jabbar.

Yet the considerable numbers did not show his great intangible contribution, as well. Or how much energy the fiery redhead had supplied his team. Nor how his defense had helped Kareem wear down and fade. He sank just six of 11 free throws in the game and went scoreless for over a third of the game in the crucial middle section when Boston took command.

Or how Cowens had ignited the deadly Celtic transition game with his defensive rebounding and quick outlet bullets, often firing his passes in midair while coming down with the carom.

…

Due in large part to the scrambling defensive strategy of Boston, Jabbar only took 21 shots in the decisive seventh contest, six below his series average for attempts to that point.

He also converted only 10 field goals after making 14.5 baskets per contest over the first six games - well below his 54 percent shooting accuracy to that point in the title series.

…

The grueling style of play that the speedy 1970's Celtics employed, in concert with a short bench and going deep into the playoffs each year (and thus having shorter off-seasons), had started to take a toll on the club. Plus, team captain Havlicek and sixth man Don Nelson were each 36.

In 1976, a grizzled Boston squad fought its way to the Finals despite a foot injury to Havlicek. It was the 13th Celtic championship series appearance in 20 years, and the last before the Larry Bird era.

…

It was Cowens who took over and scored seven points in a clutch 9-4 Celtic spurt that clinched the crown.

Despite being plagued with five fouls, the redhead gambled and came up with the biggest play of the game. As Adams drove along the right side of the lane, Dave dangerously reached in and poked the ball away from the Rookie of the Year, lunging to tip the loose sphere away from Adams.

He then snatched up the loose ball and dribbled, or more accurately roared, 80 feet upcourt at top speed on a 2 on 1 fast break, a runaway red-headed center locomotive.

As he approached the basket, the Celtic center crossed over to the right side and gave a slight head fake to freeze defender Heard. Dave then laid in a twisting backhanded layup over his shoulder while being fouled. He cashed in the free throw to give Boston a 71-67 lead and a huge momentum swing.

After a Phoenix score, Dave sealed Adams outside the low block and took a perfectly timed top-side feed from Charlie Scott before converting a right-handed layin for a 73-69 advantage.

Cowens then forced a bad miss by Adams by hotly contesting his 15-footer. Adams later canned two foul shots to cut the lead back to two. Yet Havlicek swished a clutch 18-footer from the left wing to make it 75-71.

After a Westphal miss, Dave took an entry pass and spun quickly along the right baseline with his trademark move past Adams for a pretty layup. The pet move gave Boston a little breathing room with a 77-71 margin at the 3:29 mark.

White banked in a tough right side runner and added a free throw to stretch the lead to nine, and it was all over but the shouting as Boston ultimately held on to win, 87-80.

After the final buzzer sounded, a tired Cowens hugged retiring teammate Nelson as they strode off the court as champions for the last time. For Nellie, it was a satisfying fifth ring after being released by the Lakers over a decade earlier.

With White struggling and Hondo hurt, it was clearly the clutch late offensive burst from Cowens that capped banner number 13. His aggressive, all-out defense also led to a drought of over five minutes without a basket for the Suns down the stretch.

Even though Dave scored 21 points in the decisive win, paced the defense and led all players in rebounds during the series while averaging 20.5 ppg, teammate JoJo White (21.7 ppg) was named Finals MVP.

Yet in true Cowens fashion, Dave probably didn't care that much, as long as Boston won. He was simply about winning, an undersized center who won on great athleticism (strength, speed, quickness and jumping ability), high basketball intelligence, skill, and a burning desire as bright as his red mane.

"There is no player with greater desire than Dave Cowens," said CBS commentator and fiery Hall of Famer Rick Barry during the 1976 Finals.

A powerful leaper, Cowens frequently won jump balls against much taller centers like Jabbar and an older Chamberlain, and used great positioning to frustrate Kareem and occasionally block his shots as well by forcing him to turn back to his right shoulder, away from his patented hook.

Back then a center jump ball was held at the start of each quarter, and if that rule seems antiquated, consider that the original rules up through the 1930's required that there be a center jump after every basket. So each quarter jump ball could be a key extra possession gained.

As Havlicek, who played the first seven seasons of his career with the great Bill Russell and then his final eight with Cowens, the 1970-71 co-Rookie of the Year, once said - "no one ever did more for the Celtics than Dave Cowens."

In the post-game six locker room TV interviews with CBS, Havlicek reinforced this claim. "We were able to keep Dave on the floor (not foul out), and that made the difference," said Hondo.

Unfortunately, Dave's all-out style and annual deep playoff runs eventually contributed to his body breaking down by the time he reached his early 30's.

…

Heinsohn, who after the death of Red Auerbach assumed the mantel of Mr. Celtic after 50-plus years as star player, championship coach and team announcer, called his 1970's Boston teams "the quickest of all Celtic clubs."

As such he designed a revolutionary point center/forward type of up-tempo offense to take advantage of the extraordinary blend of skills, athleticism and desire of his speedy red-headed center and Havlicek, as well as the sharpshooting White.

Those Celtics did not have a true point guard. White, Chaney and Havlicek shared the ballhandling duties, while Cowens often directed the offense from the top of the key with his passing, driving and shooting ability.

As promised, Cowens immediately goes to the top of my ballot.

For an alternate, I was between Gervin and Isiah. Isiah’s passing gets overshadowed by Magic, but I think he has a strong argument as a top three on-ball creator of the 20th century. Captained consistently potent postseason offences, with something like an average +5 relative mark throughout his entire postseason prime. However, Gervin maintained his prime for longer and has more voting support right now, so I am fine committing to him as my alternate here.

For my nomination, Mourning and Hayes are my top two, and Mourning has far more voting support. I will continue to gesture at Hayes: he is one of the most significant league figures left on the board, and his longevity as a serious all-star level player stands above anyone else — even if his style of play was unenjoyable and his behaviour as a teammate often objectionable.

Others under consideration are Dikembe Mutombo, Robert Parish and Paul George, who would be on my ballot already had he not — like Thurmond — missed three prime postseasons because of injury.

Post #7 » by **trex_8063** » Tue Dec 26, 2023 3:05 am

Induction Vote: Pau Gasol

I find it hard to believe that a guy who:
*had a mostly-durable 18-year career (ALL 18 years at least fair/useful/playable), peaking as an All-NBA level player;
**was probably at least a borderline or fringe All-Star level player (like at least top 25-30 in the league) for literally 15 seasons;
***was Robin on 2 title teams (3-4 contenders);
****is 32nd all-time in career rs WS (tied for 43rd all-time in playoffs), and 30th since 1973 in rs VORP (38th in playoffs).....

.....took until the mid-50s to even get on the ballot.
The only guys ahead of him in rs WS are Dan Issel (weaker era [some in ABA], and notably weak defensive guy), and the guy I'm nominating [Robert Parish]. And there are only six guys not yet inducted ahead of him in playoff WS (one of them is Robert Horry, fwiw; another is Horace Grant, and another is Al Horford......three guys for whom I think most would agree have no case above Pau).
The ONLY guy ahead of him in VORP [since 1973]---barely, by just 0.4---is Vince Carter. There are only four guys not yet inducted ahead of him in career playoff VORP (and again, one of them is Robert Horry; another is Horford).

McHale's inducted at #48, iirc, though I have a hard time making the case [to myself] for McHale > Pau, given Pau's superior passing, turnover economy, rebounding, and meaningful longevity (all occurring in what is likely a marginally better league, too). Similar individual accolades and team accomplishments to McHale, as well.
I hope Pau doesn't have long to wait to be inducted.

Alternate vote: Isiah Thomas
The defacto agreed-upon leader of a multiple contender team, excellent playmaker, playoff riser, fair defender. Pretty good WOWY profile in his prime.

For purposes of any potential run-off, I rank them Gasol > Thomas > Gervin > Thurmond > Cowens.

NOMINATION: Robert Parish
A longevity giant who shows signs of significant defensive impact very early in his career (and perhaps underrated on that end through much of his early prime), even though he came to be known as more of a scorer later.
This was a guy who was very productive WELL into his mid [or even late] 30s. In '89, when Bird missed the whole year, it was Parish more so than McHale who stepped up his output, and with no relevant drop in his overall efficiency.

He played more rs games than anyone in this game's history, and did so with a career PER of 19.2, .154 WS/48, +1.5 BPM, and a +9 net rating.

Alternate nomination: Chauncey Billups
The other great Piston PG; excellent efficiency [far better than Isiah, fwiw] on moderate scoring volume, decent playmaking and turnover economy, and at least passable defender through much of his prime (2x All-Defensive Team, fwiw), decent longevity, title and FMVP, 5-time All-Star and 3 All-NBA teams [all of which probably UNDERrates him]........come on. If this isn't a resume worthy of at least being on the ballot nearly at #60....... :dontknow:

Post #8 » by **penbeast0** » Tue Dec 26, 2023 3:22 am

So who are the top 3 at each of the 5 positions left

Some mentions:
C Alonzo Mourning, Willis Reed, Robert Parish
PF Bobby Jones, Elvin Hayes, Rasheed Wallace
SF Adrian Dantley, Paul George, Alex English
SG Vince Carter, Sam Jones, Tracy McGrady
PG Chauncey Billups, Bob Cousy, Tony Parker

trelos6 · Post #9 » by **trelos6** » Tue Dec 26, 2023 9:50 am

penbeast0 wrote:So who are the top 3 at each of the 5 positions left

Some mentions:
C Alonzo Mourning, Willis Reed, Robert Parish
PF Bobby Jones, Elvin Hayes, Rasheed Wallace
SF Adrian Dantley, Paul George, Alex English
SG Vince Carter, Sam Jones, Tracy McGrady
PG Chauncey Billups, Bob Cousy, Tony Parker

I have Neil Johnston, but everyone else has him in the 90’s. I also have Dikembe Mutombo and Ben Wallace, and then Parish, Reed then Zo.

PF’s I have Sheed, Nance, Marion

SF’s PG, wilkens then a big gap to outside top 100

SG: Tmac, Vince, Moncrief, Jones

PG: dame, billups, porter, Cheeks

Owly · Post #10 » by **Owly** » Tue Dec 26, 2023 10:30 am

trelos6 wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:So who are the top 3 at each of the 5 positions left

Some mentions:
C Alonzo Mourning, Willis Reed, Robert Parish
PF Bobby Jones, Elvin Hayes, Rasheed Wallace
SF Adrian Dantley, Paul George, Alex English
SG Vince Carter, Sam Jones, Tracy McGrady
PG Chauncey Billups, Bob Cousy, Tony Parker

I have Neil Johnston, but everyone else has him in the 90’s. I also have Dikembe Mutombo and Ben Wallace, and then Parish, Reed then Zo.

PF’s I have Sheed, Nance, Marion

SF’s PG, wilkens then a big gap to outside top 100

SG: Tmac, Vince, Moncrief, Jones

PG: dame, billups, porter, Cheeks

Just a heads up Wilkins for the Hawks small forward is with an "i". I say this just because the "e" spelling fits for his (briefly) former coach the point guard and one time MVP runner-up Lenny.

WintaSoldier1 · Post #11 » by **WintaSoldier1** » Tue Dec 26, 2023 4:03 pm

Vote: George Gervin
I just think there's nobody on this list that can comfortably compete with George Gervin, Just love his pace and comfort on the floor. If you'd point to his lack of motor/effort/etc[I keep seeing the rhetoric about "no defense" and etc] as a distinguishing point of why you think George G falls... I'd have to acknowledge it.

Alt: Isiah Thomas
He feels like a more "Game-Manager" Allen-Iverson, Or maybe Allen-Iverson is the "Gunner" version of IT. I had to stop and consider the value of what IT does, some of his playmaking is straight up "Rondo Assists" where he'll he just stand at the top of the key(or high FT line), wait for the action and then hit the pass and get a assist off essentially doing nothing. While I do acknowledge the fact it happened... and that the team has trust in him to essentially manage them it just leaves me to wonder how much Basketball talent it actually takes to do this, given the opportunity. His game is also a bit fragile when it comes to scoring Diet, sometimes he's not bothered by the height[Usually against competition he's comfortable against] but other times when the competition is a bit stiffer, we can see the ramifications of mentally feeling like your lack of height(He's 6'1?) is a detriment/not helping on a player.

Unsure about Nominations, Will leave them empty

homecourtloss · Post #12 » by **homecourtloss** » Tue Dec 26, 2023 5:30 pm

Vote: Nate Thurmond
Alt vote:Dave Cowens
Nomination: Alonzo Mourning

Nate Thurmond

When you watch Thurmond play, you can see his seemingly innate ability to read the game and anticipate opponents' moves/movement. The offensive schemes at the time that he played called for a certain type of defense, but I think that he would’ve also been great defensively in an open space and pace game because of his high basketball, IQ and understanding of opponents’ strategies that allow him to disrupt offensive actions opponent offensive actions. His strength and agility allowed him to guard players across multiple positions, making him a versatile defensive force. Then there was his relentless motor and as has been discussed before, any player with the motor like that combined with talent is a massive plus player, which the data that we have seems to bear out:

Dave Cowens:

Cowens played a modern game back on the ‘70s—a highly skilled, high motor, unselfish player who did things all over the court.

—He could challenge on guards on the perimeter
—He had endless motor that would be even more effective when playing shorter minutes (pace in his day was fast so he was running up down the court all game while playing heavy minutes)
—Ran in transition extremely well
—Was really strong and could defend inside even when young and looked more wiry than solid
—Great hands
—Great positioner for rebounds, had great rebound instincts
—Not the greatest rim protector but did contest shots well and had good length
—Could dribble and position himself for that beautiful lefty jumpshot
—Was a very good free throw shooter and midrange shooter who, I think, could develop a three point shot for today’s game
—Had tremendous upcourt instincts perfect for the game at the time. I love watching highlights of him grab rebounds and turn his head to look upcourt before he even lands with the ball
—Very good passer, great outlet passer

Alonzo Mourning:

High-motor defensive monster who could provide efficacious scoring (oddly stopped shooting FTs well after he left Charlotte). Shows up well in Moonbeam’s RWoWY set and Englemann’s PI RAPM, 1997-2022

Post #13 » by **Doctor MJ** » Tue Dec 26, 2023 7:58 pm

penbeast0 wrote:So who are the top 3 at each of the 5 positions left

Some mentions:
C Alonzo Mourning, Willis Reed, Robert Parish
PF Bobby Jones, Elvin Hayes, Rasheed Wallace
SF Adrian Dantley, Paul George, Alex English
SG Vince Carter, Sam Jones, Tracy McGrady
PG Chauncey Billups, Bob Cousy, Tony Parker

Interesting to compare and consider. From my pre-list:

C Willis Reed, Ben Wallace, Wes Unseld
PF Bobby Jones, Rasheed Wallace, Elvin Hayes
SF Cliff Hagan, Jayson Tatum, James Worthy
SG Sam Jones, Sidney Moncrief, Bill Sharman
PG Bob Davies, Al Cervi, Damian Lillard

First thing I have to say is that I'm not relishing the idea of arguing for super-old-timers after super-old-timer. I'll definitely be re-evaluating when the time comes to decide whether I really I think these guys all warrant inclusion here.

Going through position by postition:

At Center you picked two guys different from my list...but honestly I'm not sure whether I will vote for my 3 before your 3. Good arguments for both Zo and Chief.

At PF we picked the same guys just flipping Sheed & Hayes. I think I'm set on my order here, but clearly we see things pretty similarly.

At SF we're totally different. Not sure where to start the discussion, but clearly there's plenty to discuss.

At SG, we both picked Sam, but diverged on the other two. I'll say that I'm thinking more highly of Carter and don't think I'll be advocating for Sharman over him.

At Point, also totally different. I'll say that Billups in particular has a cae over Dame, and Cousy most would put over Davies & Cervi

Post #14 » by **penbeast0** » Tue Dec 26, 2023 9:49 pm

trelos6 wrote:
SF’s PG, wilkens then a big gap to outside top 100

On what basis do you have Nique over Dantley and English who were contemporaries with similar games (all did a lot of midrange, slashing, post-ups) and none of whom provided a great deal of value outside of scoring (English was the best playmaker, Nique the best rebounder) but whose scoring was much more efficient than Nique's (.617! and .550 to .536 career) plus who increased that efficiency gap in the playoffs where Nique was, not pretty (.606 and .556 to .510 ts%).

The only case for Nique really is style points for having (and arguably deserving) the best nickname in NBA history.

trelos6 · Post #15 » by **trelos6** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:33 am

penbeast0 wrote:
trelos6 wrote:
SF’s PG, wilkens then a big gap to outside top 100

On what basis do you have Nique over Dantley and English who were contemporaries with similar games (all did a lot of midrange, slashing, post-ups) and none of whom provided a great deal of value outside of scoring (English was the best playmaker, Nique the best rebounder) but whose scoring was much more efficient than Nique's (.617! and .550 to .536 career) plus who increased that efficiency gap in the playoffs where Nique was, not pretty (.606 and .556 to .510 ts%).

The only case for Nique really is style points for having (and arguably deserving) the best nickname in NBA history.

I have Nique with 5 ALL NBA level seasons. 85-86, 86-87, 87-88, 89-90, 90-91. 2 more all star level seasons in 88-89, 92-93.

Dantley I have 1 ALL NBA level, 83-84, with 3 more all star level seasons, 80-82, 85-86.

English I have par with Dantley. 82-83 ALL NBA level only.

Basically, I have Dantley and English as poor defenders, with Nique providing similar offensive output (not the elite Dantley efficiency though) with average defense.

Post #16 » by **penbeast0** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 2:45 am

I have Nique as comparable or worse defensively (comparable to Dantley, worse than English by eye test at the time). That's backed up by a Sports Illustrated poll in the mid 80s where players voted him the player who put in the least effort in the league on defense (and Gervin was still playing).

I have him as a scoring 3 similar to English and Dantley but not "similar offensive output" with English both more efficient and a better playmaker and playoff performer while Dantley just blows him away in terms of scoring. Similar role, performed far better. Calling them similar offensive performances is equating Jordan Poole to Tyrese Maxey because they are both small guys who shoot a lot.

Let's look at your "All-NBA" seasons for Nique in 85-86, 86-87, 87-88, 89-90, 90-91. Nique scored 30, 29, 31, 26, 27 on efficiencies of .536, .543, .534, .528, .556 and 3 of those 5 seasons he's below league average efficiency.

Now let's look at Dantley's equivalent 5 year stretch from 79-80 to 83-84. One year he was injured (82-83) though on pace for an equivalent season. He scored 28, 30, 31, (30), 31 so he's outscoring Nique albeit in a faster paced system (with worse guards). HIs efficiency numbers are .635, .622, .631. (.661), .652.

Neither player adds much outside of scoring, one of them has 4 years that deserve top 100 consideration, one of them has zero. Unfortunately, it's Nique that just isn't good enough at his main skill to be a legit mention at this point in the project except for his nickname/rep rather than his performance. He's closer to Carmelo Anthony than a truly unique scorer like Dantley. That's a very good player if that's what your team needs, but Dantley was special and the top 100 is looking for the guys that are special.

AEnigma · Post #17 » by **AEnigma** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 5:39 am

I am very excited to see Kiki Vandeweghe in our top hundred.

HeartBreakKid · Post #18 » by **HeartBreakKid** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:28 am

My vote is for Dave Cowens – I have Cowens at 52 on my 2020 list, but I do not actually remember why or how (for comparisons sake I have Arizin at 49, and everyone else currently nominated lower ranked than Cowens).

I’d have to look into why I put Cowens over Thurmond, but I suspect it’s because Cowens was a more consistent offensive hub in regards to passing, and playing within himself on offense. However, I think it’s worth considering that Thurmond’s defensive impact might be big enough to dwarf that.

A valuation of just exactly how good of a defender Cowens is seems rather important. He kind of has the Hondo reputation but in the body of a big, it’s difficult to grasp how he impacts the game.

My alternate vote is for Nate Thurmond - I'm a big fan of his defensive dominance and definitely feel like if the deck was reshuffled he could have been behind some major defensive dynasties. I think versus someone like Gervin or a 2 way player like Pau, a gulf in all time defense is enough to make up for his poor shot selection. The evidence isn't totally solid, but it seems like Nate might be a top ten defender of all time - crazy blocks, rebounds, and seems like he is athletic enough to be a consistent open court and switch defender. Seems like his decision making is under debate though.

The others

Isiah Thomas - Great offensive player who helped anchor elite offenses before the Pistons became contenders. I trust him to run a team more than Pau and Gervin, but I'd take some big boy defensive C's over him.

Pau Gasol - He's a case of a player who was good for a very long time but not truly great. This type of player doesn't score well on my criteria. Players like Embiid and Rizin are gone now, so Pau is becoming more of a live contender. I think Cowens/Thurmond's defense might be enough of an outlier for me to take them over Pau. I think DPOY caliber defense is really hard to beat.

Gervin - I've never been convinced that Gervin was a great player, so hopefully this time around is when it happens. Just seems like such a one dimensional player, and I don't know if his scoring is enough to overcome all those negatives AND be placed above the top 60 best players. I'm incline to think that he likely gave up a lot on defense - I know someone is gonna be like "ACTUALLY HE WASNT THAT BAD and it's like come on...he literally said he doesn't play defense lol.

My nomination is for Willis Reed

My alternate nomination is for Bill Walton

trelos6 · Post #19 » by **trelos6** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 6:42 am

Spoiler:

I have Dominique in the 80's. It's just that he was the second SF on the list, so I put him down. So yeah, he's nowhere near anytime soon for me either.

Post #20 » by **penbeast0** » Wed Dec 27, 2023 3:20 pm

AEnigma wrote:I am very excited to see Kiki Vandeweghe in our top hundred.

Hey, it's your choice, your criteria.