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With Luka continuing to amaze and break offensive records left and right we have to start comparing him to previous great guards.

So the question is.. is current Luka better than prime harden (2018-2020)

I would lean Luka, partly due to lack of playoff drop off, and partly due to slightly better defensive utility. Luka is a discount Lebron, whereas Harden is only a more efficient Kobe. Discount Lebron is just more valuable.

NBA4Lyfe wrote:With Luka continuing to amaze and break offensive records left and right we have to start comparing him to previous great guards.

So the question is.. is current Luka better than prime harden (2018-2020)

Am not insinuating my answer here is Luka (Harden definitely had a regular season edge, I like Luka’s resiliency more and feel that makes the playoff gap between them is closer - to the point of a dart toss).

At that, I Ask.. for those who may prefer or choose to vote for Luka: Will they get the full preface of Harden’s VORP, 538 RAPTOR, et al as evidence Harden is a tier or so better?

1 player shows up in the playoffs and other doesn't

Unfortunately for me prime Harden was a product of refs. He was great i get that, he could solo destroy teams but opposing teams literally had their hands on their back as they were mocking refs but somehow it was still a foul when they ran next to Harden. I can't take that seriously. And yea like others said, Luka is just insane in playoffs.

I prefer Luka in the playoffs because of better resiliency with his offense.

Harden's still better in the RS though.

I pick Luka because I him as a more versatile offensive player with more counters in the PS. Luka can post-up, work from the midrange, or 3, while also being a better finisher at the rim than Harden. I think Luka keeps defenses off-balance more with how he will beat you, where as Harden from 18-20 (in a similar role), was more straightforward in terms of its either a shot at the rim/foul drawn or a 3. Luka can get hot from more spots inside the arc, which is helpful if teams should run you off the line. Luka's midrange FG% in all of his series was the following: 50%, 46%, 52%, 47%, and 39% and he is shooting these anywhere from 8.3 to 12 attempts per 75 possessions. Harden from 18-20 had the following percentages from the midrange: 32%, 34%, 41%, 28%, 43%, 50%, AND 48%, with his range of attempts being anywhere from 3.7 to 8.1 attempts per 75 possessions. I think these "counters are really helpful, for when a guy isn't able to get fully to the rim or doesn't have the vertical explosiveness to finish over a big


And I am not sure if people realize that this has made Luka arguably a more effective scorer during their undisputed #1 option stretches.

From 20-22 in the PS, Luka is averaging an 33.15 pts per 75 on a rTS% of about 2.9%.

This 3-year scoring rate is the highest in NBA history not counting Jordan years. Luka was able to up his volume in the PS in a way we just haven't really seen anyone else do. Yes, the heliocentric environment of today helps with allowing his offensive load to be what it was, but considering we are comparing him to Harden, I don't think it is as relevant.

Harden from 18-20 in the PS, was at about 39.9 pts per 75 on a rTS% of about 3.3% as well.

So we have an example here, of Harden not having his normal efficiency edge he has over Luka in a RS comparison, and his scoring volume is actually lower.

If you look at ScoreVal which attempts to measure the value of their scoring, Luka's scoring comes out looking a bit more valuable as well.

20-22 Luka: 1.2

18-20 Harden: 1


There is also just the fact that I believe Luka to be a different level of playmaker from Harden (even as good as Harden is).

Luka still hasn't reached the heights of Harden in the RS
From 20-22, Luka had a PlayVal of 2.1.

Harden from 16-18, had a PlayVal of 1.6.

I imagine the difference between the 2 here would likely be at least a standard deviation, and once again I get why.

Luka is a more versatile passer and general craft. I think Luka can pass to his left and right, while I actually think a decent weakness of Harden's during this period was passing to his left. Harden can't pass to all angles of the court as well as Luka and isn't as impromptu/off-schedule as Luka. Luka also mixes in fakes, and manipulation with his eyes better, and is also better with making skip passes, that can really force the defense to scramble, and lead to easier looks for his shooters.


This combination of Luka being statistically a better PS scorer, and having some distance ahead of Harden as a playmaker makes me lean him.


I think we all can agree that both Harden and Luka have big box-score production. Some might even argue that the box-score overrates their actual true impact, so the numbers I am about to use may have more value than they normally have when evaluating guys, as they are largely offense-only guys, which the box-score can track better.

Luka (20-22)
33.15 Points Per 75 Possessions (rTS% of 2.9%), Estimated Weighted Average of 16.6 Shots Created Per 100 Possessions

Average Backpicks BPM-7.1
PER-27.9
BPM-9.7


Luka in the PS series during these times lead had the following raw rORTG: 4.7, 3.4, 7.1, 8.3, and 4


James Harden (18-20)

IA 29.9 Points Per 75 Possessions (rTS% of 3.3%), Estimated 12.4 Shots Created Per 100 Possessions

Average Backpicks BPM-6.6
PER-25.8
BPM-8.5


Harden in the PS series during these times lead had the following raw rORTG: 5.3, 7, -4, 2.9, 3.8, 0.2, and 0.9

Luka looks to have an argument by the pure box-score.

I think where Harden might close the gap during the talked about periods, is ironically defensively. I am not confident in saying by how much, but I do think Harden is a better defender. It is possible to sway me perhaps in believing Harden is the better guy because you think he is not the liability that Doncic is. I am not sure if I ever saw Harden get attacked the same way Doncic did against the Warriors (and early parts of the Suns series). Houston did have better defensive personnel, but seemingly Harden never stuck out as negatively as Doncic did, although my sight could deceive me.

Harden to me reached regular season heights that Luka has not quite done, but Luka's performances and game seems to hold up better in the postseason than Harden's did due to his bigger frame, strength, and an incredible amount of scoring counters. Luka's court vision and passing versatility also gives him an edge over Harden. I think with all told, I would take Luka > Harden offensively. However, I wonder how much value Luka loses defensively. Even in his better years, Harden himself was probably just a neutral-ish defender, but I still would consider Luka a clear negative come playoff time when teams will be attacking him. Overall, not sure where I land on this; I think I would say Harden for now but may very well change my assessment by the year's end.

TroubleS0me wrote:1 player shows up in the playoffs and other doesn't

One has similar stats to Kobe in the post-season, the other much better than Kobe

Colbinii wrote:

TroubleS0me wrote:1 player shows up in the playoffs and other doesn't

One has similar stats to Kobe in the post-season, the other much better than Kobe

The average score today is like 110. When Kobe played the average was like 90. Everyone is averaging crazy numbers today

Asianiac_24 wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

TroubleS0me wrote:1 player shows up in the playoffs and other doesn't

One has similar stats to Kobe in the post-season, the other much better than Kobe

The average score today is like 110. When Kobe played the average was like 90. Everyone is averaging crazy numbers today

Like 90 is a weird way of saying 100

Colbinii wrote:

Asianiac_24 wrote:

Colbinii wrote:
One has similar stats to Kobe in the post-season, the other much better than Kobe

The average score today is like 110. When Kobe played the average was like 90. Everyone is averaging crazy numbers today

Like 90 is a weird way of saying 100

What did Kobe do to you?

TroubleS0me wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

Asianiac_24 wrote:
The average score today is like 110. When Kobe played the average was like 90. Everyone is averaging crazy numbers today

Like 90 is a weird way of saying 100

What did Kobe do to you?

How is Kobe in this conversation?

TroubleS0me wrote:

TroubleS0me wrote:

Colbinii wrote:
Like 90 is a weird way of saying 100

What did Kobe do to you?

How is Kobe in this conversation?

Because you said one doesn't show up in the playoffs and I made a comment about how Kobe/Harden have similar post-season numbers, especially prime-to-prime.

Colbinii wrote:

TroubleS0me wrote:

TroubleS0me wrote:
What did Kobe do to you?

How is Kobe in this conversation?

Because you said one doesn't show up in the playoffs and I made a comment about how Kobe/Harden have similar post-season numbers, especially prime-to-prime.

Per-100 possessions:

2017 James Harden: 38/7/11 on 7.2 TOs on 58 TS%, +3% from league average.
2018 James Harden: 39/9/7 and 5.2 TOs on 55 TS%, -1% from league average.
2019 James Harden: 40/9/8 and 6.0 TOs on 57 TS%, -0.7% from league average.

2008 Kobe Bryant: 38/7/7 and 4.2 TOs on 58 TS%, +4% from league average.
2009 Kobe Bryant: 39/7/7 and 3.3 TOs on 56 TS%, +2.5% from league average.
2010 Kobe Bryant: 39/8/7 and 4.4 TOs on 57 TS%, +3% from league average.

Kobe is scoring the same amount, on higher efficiency, better assist to turnover ratio, playing better defense, with better leadership, in a league less friendly to perimeter players. Harden in the playoffs is a bit of a myth in turns of how bad he becomes, but Kobe was better in the POs than him.

Are these stats real??

?s=46

This is Luka and this is not close because of the playoffs or the huge number of playoff meltdown by Harden in his career

One_and_Done wrote:I would lean Luka, partly due to lack of playoff drop off, and partly due to slightly better defensive utility. Luka is a discount Lebron, whereas Harden is only a more efficient Kobe. Discount Lebron is just more valuable.

That doesn't make sense at all, no.

Like, sure, supporting Luka. I can get behind that.

But the Kobe comparison to Harden makes no sense. Statistically or aesthetically, even with the write-off tag of "more efficient."

tsherkin wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:I would lean Luka, partly due to lack of playoff drop off, and partly due to slightly better defensive utility. Luka is a discount Lebron, whereas Harden is only a more efficient Kobe. Discount Lebron is just more valuable.

That doesn't make sense at all, no.

Like, sure, supporting Luka. I can get behind that.

But the Kobe comparison to Harden makes no sense. Statistically or aesthetically, even with the write-off tag of "more efficient."

Statistically Harden has a pretty overwhelming argument over Kobe.

One_and_Done wrote:Statistically Harden has a pretty overwhelming argument over Kobe.

That was my point, yes. Or part of it. Harden's playmaking was considerably advanced relative to what we saw from Kobe, even if he lacked playoff resiliency. But yeah, he doesn't look really anything like Kobe in style of play, so calling him a "more efficient Kobe" made no sense to me.