RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #59 (George Gervin)

[Doctor MJ]

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. Nomination vote now works the same way.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:

AEnigma
Ambrose
ceilng raiser
ceoofkobefans
Clyde Frazier
Colbinii
cupcakesnake
Doctor MJ
Dooley
DQuinn1575
Dr Positivity
DraymondGold
Dutchball97
f4p
falcolombardi
Fundamentals21
Gibson22
HeartBreakKid
homecourtloss
iggymcfrack
LA Bird
JimmyFromNz
Joao Saraiva
lessthanjake
Lou Fan
Moonbeam
Narigo
OhayoKD
OldSchoolNoBull
penbeast0
Rishkar
rk2023
Samurai
ShaqAttac
Taj FTW
Tim Lehrbach
trelos6
trex_8063
ty 4191
WintaSoldier1
ZeppelinPage

Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Pau Gasol


George Gervin


Alonzo Mourning


Willis Reed


Nate Thurmond


As requested, here's the current list so far along with the historical spreadsheet of previous projects:

Current List
Historical Spreadsheet

[penbeast0]

Vote: George Gervin Mr. One Dimensional scorer but he was very good at that role.

Alt Vote: Nate Thurmond Far from sure of this one. I could go Willis, Zo, or Pau pretty easily as well. Make a case!


Nominate: Bobby Jones. More than a decade of straight 1st team All-Defense votes combined with high efficiency, though not high volume scoring, and good playmaking. Not a great rebounder for his position but could play 2-5 at either end. Probably the greatest glue guy in NBA history and in his time where he was the best player on his team (75 and 76 for example), his team was the best in the league both years though they came up short in the playoffs. The most 1st team All-Defense awards, best player on two Nugget teams that had the best record in the NBA (though both came up short in the playoffs), great efficiency without being just an inside scorer, excellent passer, decent offensive rebounder, defensively good at blocking out rather than getting the board, good shot blocker for a forward, good steals, could play up to the 5 or down to the 2, limited minutes because of a physical condition but probably the greatest glue guy in the history of the NBA.

Alt Nomination Adrian Dantley -- like Gervin, his case is pure scoring but the statistics are so shiny. High volume, super efficient scorer; hard to believe a team couldn't be built to take advantage of this incredible ability.

[Gibson22]

I don't know if ill do a real voting post but my order out of these guys would be

Gervin
Thurmond
Mourning
Reed
Gasol

Also, super surprised at how much gervin dropped, is there any particular reason? I think he has a good case against anybody after barry, would have him around 45

[LA Bird]

I have too much time before New Years so here is a writeup on Mourning vs Reed:

Defense

Both share some similarities in terms of their size and their physicality. The key difference is Mourning had a crazy 7'6.5 wingspan which made him one of the best shot blockers and rim protectors in history. He averaged 3.9 and 3.7 blocks in back to back seasons when he won DPOYs in 1998 and 1999. In 1997, he anchored a #1 defense which held the #1 offense Jordan Bulls to 10.4 points below their regular season average, the worst series performance during their 6 title runs. Mourning is one of the few players in the plus/minus era with a -10 or better defensive on/off season (-11.2 in 1999). Although his prime was cut short by health problems, his shotblocking numbers per possession were even more impressive as his scoring declined - averaging more blocks than prime DPOY Ben Wallace in 2006 while coming off the bench for the championship Heat team (2.7 blocks in 20 min). Mourning is a borderline top 10 defensive center of all time and top 15 overall.

OTOH, Reed doesn't really have much of an argument as an all time defender. He had a good peak year in 1970 as All Defense 1st team when the Knicks had the #1 defense but that seems to be more team performance based since he also played with some of the GOAT defenders at their positions. Frazier and DeBusschere still hold the record for most All Defense 1st team selections as teammates (6). In the three seasons before Frazier and DeBusschere, the Knicks with Reed had the second worst (+2.8), worst (+5.0), and worst (+4.4) defense in the entire league. They became an average defensive team after drafting Frazier and then a top defense after trading for DeBusschere. To be fair, Reed was playing out of position at PF some of those early years next to a weak defensive C in Bellamy but I see the twin tower lineup as more of a problem offensively than defensively with the lack of spacing back then. I haven't watched any videos of early Reed but the Knicks being the league worst defense for basically the first third of his career is a red flag. In any case, Reed while solid at his best was not close to an all time level defender like Mourning over the course of their careers.

Offense

Reed at his peak was a great offensive player and clearly better on that end than Mourning when it comes to the postseason. However, his main weakness is longevity and I don't think many people really realize how short of a prime Reed had. Here are his scoring numbers in his entire career (volume non adjusted for pace BTW)

65: 19.5 ppg on -0.2 TS
66: 15.5 ppg on +1.0 TS
67: 20.9 ppg on +4.5 TS
68: 20.8 ppg on +3.9 TS
69: 21.1 ppg on +7.1 TS
70: 21.7 ppg on +4.1 TS
71: 20.9 ppg on +1.0 TS
72: 13.4 ppg on -2.7 TS
73: 11.0 ppg on +0.2 TS
74: 11.1 ppg on +0.3 TS

The last 3 seasons are practically irrelevant with all the missed games due to injury. Of the years left, only 4 have both good scoring volume and good efficiency too (67-70). Now compare that to the 8 similar seasons Mourning had before his injury:

93: 21.0 ppg on +5.0 TS
94: 21.5 ppg on +6.0 TS
95: 21.3 ppg on +5.0 TS
96: 23.2 ppg on +4.2 TS
97: 19.8 ppg on +4.2 TS
98: 19.2 ppg on +7.1 TS
99: 20.1 ppg on +5.2 TS
00: 21.7 ppg on +7.3 TS

Obviously, there is more to offense than just PPG and relative TS but the point here is that Reed's relevant offensive prime is quite short even in comparison to Mourning. To his credit, Reed had some great postseason performances at his peak, with his 69 playoffs run against top 2 defenses led by Russell and Unseld being especially underrated all time. He was also a better passer than Mourning. However, Reed's offensive advantages only go to partially offset the defensive advantages Mourning had IMO. Reed was never as good offensively as Mourning was defensively and I still have Mourning ranked higher for single season peaks. FWIW, Mourning was voted above Reed in the last peaks project here too.

Overall

Mourning is ahead in advanced metrics, both for rate and career totals and he is ahead in every impact metric too. The common argument for Reed is rings and team success but he had far better teammates who still took the team to the Finals without him. Frazier was inducted in the 30s well above Reed himself and DeBusschere has a chance of making top 100. Surround Mourning with that amount of talent and he is winning championships too. He had a league leading +12 on-court net over a 3 year stretch and the Heat weren't anywhere near as stacked as those 70s Knicks. Reed normally has an advantage when it comes to intangibles and leadership but Mourning is strong on that front too, with a lasting impact on Heat culture to this day. Reed had his famous G7 of the 70 Finals where he hit his first two buckets but people omit him going scoreless the rest of the game and grabbing 3 rebounds total in 27 minutes. I would argue Mourning's 5 blocks in G6 of the 06 Finals was a more impactful title clinching performance, especially since it was defense that won them the game (Mavs 94.1 ORtg were 17.7 points below RS average)

Watch on YouTube

The only viable argument left for Reed is accolades but I don't see anyone bringing up MVP for Iverson or Unseld right now. Retro POY voting by this board had neither as MVP in any season but Mourning's peak placing (#2 in 00 behind peak Shaq) was above Reed's (#3 in 69 behind Russell, West). Reed's best case is his peak but even Mourning comes out slightly ahead there. I don't see the argument for Reed for overall careers when Mourning also had a longer and better prime on top of a better peak.

[AEnigma]

VOTE: George Gervin
Alternate: Alonzo Mourning
NOMINATE: Dikembe Mutombo
AltNom: Elvin Hayes

Gervin and Mourning had similar status relative to their respective leagues, although I do think Mourning peaked meaningfully higher and is a more innately valuable archetype. Neither accomplished much in the postseason (with Mourning picking up a roleplayer ring). Here it kind-of comes down to Mourning being capped at an eight-year prime, and not an especially “essential” one (contrast Cowens or Isiah).

Hayes has the most career value of anyone here, while being in discussion for best player on a title team and respectably peaking at third in MVP voting (1975 — deserved — and 1979 — much less deserved). I tend to attribute the most on-court responsibility for the Bullets’ success in that era to him, with the acknowledgments that the team was generally well put together (made the Finals before he arrived and arguably made Dandridge their centrepiece when they broke through) and that Unseld wins every off-court comparison. I mostly am looking to on-court value for this project, but if people prefer Unseld as the unifying figure on the team, that makes sense too.

[Clyde Frazier]

I don't know if ill do a real voting post but my order out of these guys would be

Gervin
Thurmond
Mourning
Reed
Gasol

Also, super surprised at how much gervin dropped, is there any particular reason? I think he has a good case against anybody after barry, would have him around 45

This feels like the biggest change in voter pool from project to project since I started voting in 2014. So that might be why.

[AEnigma]

If Gervin dropping is a concern — not sure why it would be, it is not like he is some foundational figure — then there should be more efforts to make his case. I can see him anywhere from like ~45 to 60, and him hitting the back end of that seems to reflect primarily on him having no especially compelling case the way players with title equity or clearer high-end impact indicators do.

[trelos6]

I’ve been working on a defense project, to get my head around the best defenders of all time, by position.

Thurmond definitely has a higher peak than Mourning, but it’s more one tier above.

Offensively, Mourning has a huge edge on Thurmond.

Reed has a very high peak, but it’s hard to parse out his defensive impact from his elite defensive teammates (as others have mentioned).


Mourning and Reed are tied in my CORP, but I lean towards Alonzo > Reed > Pau > Thurmond

Gervin is around Pau.

So for now,

Vote: Alonzo Mourning
Alt vote: Willis Reed

Nomination: Dikembe Mutombo
Alt. nom: Ben Wallace

2 amazing defensive centers. With 14+ years of elite defensive impact, having one of these guys on your roster means you can sleep well knowing the rim is protected at the highest of levels.

[OhayoKD]

I don't know if ill do a real voting post but my order out of these guys would be

Gervin
Thurmond
Mourning
Reed
Gasol

Also, super surprised at how much gervin dropped, is there any particular reason? I think he has a good case against anybody after barry, would have him around 45

This feels like the biggest change in voter pool from project to project since I started voting in 2014. So that might be why.

I think the biggest factor is defense being valued more. If he drops further, I expect it's going to be Thurmond that pipes him.

Shift from made-up box formulas and counting stats towards impact and/or alternative "box-scores"(opposing fg% vs thurmond for example) is naturally going to lead to offensive-slanted players being valued less.

Interior defense is also just valued more and thurmond' being considered the best post defender is probably helping too(and by extension hurting barry).

That kind of shift would almost certainly produce a significant drop.

Bigs are dominating this list to a degree they haven't before and the non-bigs faring the strongest are the ones with a notable paint-presence and evidence of anchoring/greatly improving defenses. Gervin to my knowledge is not considered a notable defender so it's not suprising to me this voting bloc viewed him lower.

There's also the matter of more modernist time-machine argumentation(from what I can tell in previous projects the 80's were considered the start of "modern" basketball) which probably played a role in someone like Embid getting voted earlier.

[HeartBreakKid]

My vote is for Willis Reed – It’s between him and Alonzo for some of the last elite two way, 1st option type of bigs. I’m not actually sure if he’s better than Alonzo, but I felt like I’ve underrated him in the past and I may be overcompensating for it.

My alternate vote is for Alonzo Mourning – He’s been overrated a lot as an offensive player as his high scoring comes with a lot of warts and limitations, but compared to Thurmond it’s clear that Alonzo would still be a very effective 2nd option. He is not as good of an offensive player as Pau Gasol who has more utility and is less wasteful of possessions, but the defensive gap is quite large. I don’t put him on the same tier as Thurmond, but Alonzo is still a DPOY caliber center, which is quite game changing.




The others

Nate Thurmond – I think his defense is more than enough to carry him over some real great two way and offensive players, but going up against C’s like Mourning and Reed prices him out.


Pau Gasol – Pau is incredibly well rounded and has heroics, but I think he gets a bit too much credit for being a “2nd guy”. I think there are a lot of 1st guys who are stereotyped of not being able to play well with other stars, and I don’t really buy it. I don’t care much for longevity either, and we can’t take into account international play, so Gasol doesn’t rank that high compared to the players available. I think Thurmond's defense might be enough of an outlier for me to take them over Pau for example. Isiah was able to anchor elite offenses due to his ability to facilitate and score at a high level. I think DPOY caliber defense is really hard to beat, and an offensive oriented center going up against an all time great PG is equally hard.

Gervin - I've never been convinced that Gervin was a great player, so hopefully this time around is when it happens. Just seems like such a one dimensional player, and I don't know if his scoring is enough to overcome all those negatives AND be placed above the top 60 best players. I'm incline to think that he likely gave up a lot on defense - I know someone is gonna be like "ACTUALLY HE WASNT THAT BAD and it's like come on...he literally said he doesn't play defense lol.


My nomination for Cliff Hagen - I feel this is a consistent pick with my lack of importance on longevity.



Cliff Hagen has some real playoff heroics and is perhaps the biggest catalyst to the Hawks only title. He has a couple of years where he is the playoff hero. He never quite plays at that level for the rest of his career, but he is still good scorer for his era, just not eyepopping like 58 and to a lesser extent 59.

I think most of the players after him typically more regular season guys (at least the guys who are going to be getting votes soon). I'm going to favor someone who had a 05 Manu like run here.

My alternate nomination is for Bill Walton

[Samurai]

Vote for #59: George Gervin. Outstanding scorer who led the league in scoring 4 times (only Jordan, Wilt and KD have more scoring titles and tied with Kobe and Harden). Named All NBA/ABA nine times (5 of them to the First Team), played in 12 straight All Star games, and scored double figures in 407 consecutive games. Not a very good defender although he was a very good defensive rebounder and shot blocker for a guard. And the eye test tells me that he had the best floating finger roll off a drive that I've ever seen (Wilt's was off a post-up, not a drive!).

Alternate vote: Alonzo Mourning. Elite defender (two-time Defensive Player of the Year) to go with solid scoring skills (five seasons in the top 20 in points/game and four top 20 seasons in TS%). Good but not elite rebounder and not a particularly good passer. But eight seasons in the top 20 for PER still indicates that he was a star in his era.


Nomination: Bobby Jones. Part of me keeps thinking this is too early for him given his lack of longevity and durability. But I'm pretty sure that I would take Jones and his reduced minutes over Draymond if I were drafting a team, so seeing Green get selected convinced me to consider him. Gotta admit that there is bias here since Jones is one of my favorite players of all time. Despite averaging less than 30 minutes/game during his NBA career, he still has ten All Defensive First Team awards and one Second Team selection (in his second to last season averaging only 20 minutes/game). He was nicknamed The Secretary of Defense for good reason. He didn't shoot much but he was highly efficient, leading the league in FG% three times and finishing in the top 20 in TS% nine times. But as good as he was at playing basketball, how he conducted himself may have been even more admirable. He was always a gentleman with honor; he didn't drink, smoke or use profanity, always raised his hand when called for a foul - even telling a ref who mistakenly called a foul on a teammate that he was the one who actually committed the foul, even though that was his fifth foul! When teammates tried to show him ways to "cheat" by grabbing an opponent's jersey or committing a foul when the ref wasn't looking, he adamantly refused to do so. He would reply "if I have to play defense by holding on, that's when I quit." Teammate Dr J described Jones as "a player who's totally selfless, who runs like a deer, jumps like a gazelle, plays with his head and heart each night, and then walks away from the court as if nothing happened." And former teammate Charles Barkley said "if everyone in the world was like Bobby Jones, the world wouldn't have any problems."

Alternate nomination: Sam Jones. Not at all sure on this one. Ten rings but some will take that with a grain of salt for being Russell's teammate. Three-time All NBA Second Team (cursed by playing guard at the same time that Oscar and West were in their primes) and had three top ten finishes in MVP voting. Seven top twenty finishes in both points/game and TS% indicates that he was not only a scoring threat but an efficient shooter as well. I don't have a good feel on how good he was on defense; he had 9 top twenty finishes in DWS but Russell was obviously the primary driver of the team's excellent defense and KC Jones typically drew the assignment of defending the opposing team's primary backcourt scorer. One of the greatest bank shot artists of all-time; he was banking in shots before Tim Duncan was even born.

[trex_8063]

Induction Vote: Pau Gasol

It was hard for me to believe that a guy who:
*had a mostly-durable 18-year career (ALL 18 years at least fair/useful/playable), peaking as an All-NBA level player;
**was probably at least a borderline or fringe All-Star level player (like at least top 25-30 in the league) for literally 15 seasons;
***was Robin on 2 title teams (3-4 contenders);
****is 32nd all-time in career rs WS (tied for 43rd all-time in playoffs), and 30th since 1973 in rs VORP (38th in playoffs).....

.....took until the mid-50s to even get on the ballot.
The only guys ahead of him in rs WS are Dan Issel (weaker era [some in ABA], and notably weak defensive guy), and the guy I'm nominating [Robert Parish]. And there are only six guys not yet inducted ahead of him in playoff WS (one of them is Robert Horry, fwiw; another is Horace Grant, and another is Al Horford......three guys for whom I think most would agree have no case above Pau).
The ONLY guy ahead of him in VORP [since 1973]---barely, by just 0.4---is Vince Carter. There are only four guys not yet inducted ahead of him in career playoff VORP (and again, one of them is Robert Horry; another is Horford).

McHale's inducted at #48, iirc, though I have a hard time making the case [to myself] for McHale > Pau, given Pau's superior passing, turnover economy, rebounding, and meaningful longevity (all occurring in what is likely a marginally better league, too). Similar individual accolades and team accomplishments to McHale, as well.
I hope Pau doesn't have long to wait to be inducted. Seems a head-scratcher that the above resume should potentially pushed out of the top 60 (particularly with an Olympic/international career to potentially function as tie-breaker consideration???).


Alternate vote: George Gervin
Perhaps a bit of a one-trick pony (in that scoring was his one and only calling card), but he was awfully good at that, and generally pretty resilient in the playoffs. Led some pretty good offenses in the late 70s, and I speculate not quite as bad defensively [at least early in his career] as he's often credited with.
Just seems like the best of who remains (though in truth there are at least a couple guys not yet on the ballot I'd RATHER pick as my alternate vote).


For purposes of any potential run-off, I rank them Gasol > Gervin > (Mourning >/= Thurmond) > Reed.



NOMINATION: Robert Parish
A longevity giant who shows signs of significant defensive impact very early in his career (and perhaps underrated on that end through much of his early prime), even though he came to be known as more of a scorer later.
This was a guy who was very productive WELL into his mid [or even late] 30s. In '89, when Bird missed the whole year, it was Parish more so than McHale who stepped up his output, and with no relevant drop in his overall efficiency.

He played more rs games than anyone in this game's history, and did so with a career PER of 19.2, .154 WS/48, +1.5 BPM, and a +9 net rating.


Alternate nomination: Chauncey Billups
The other great Piston PG; excellent efficiency [far better than Isiah, fwiw] on moderate scoring volume, decent playmaking and turnover economy, and at least passable defender through much of his prime (2x All-Defensive Team, fwiw), decent longevity, title and FMVP, 5-time All-Star and 3 All-NBA teams [all of which probably UNDERrates him]........come on. If this isn't a resume worthy of at least being on the ballot nearly at #60.......

[trex_8063]

My nomination for Cliff Hagen - I feel this is a consistent pick with my lack of importance on longevity.

Hagan, fwiw.

Far too early for him, imo, though I'm bigger on longevity. However, even with a moderate improvement on that front I think I'd still feel it's too early on him, based on era he succeeded in. If I ignored both considerations, then maybe I could see him somewhere in the 60-75 range.

[Clyde Frazier]

Vote 1 - George Gervin
Vote 2 - Willis Reed
Nomination 1 - Robert Parish

The Iceman
Even though Gervin's playoff success leaves something to be desired, he was still an impressive playoff performer, putting up the following from '75-'83 (65 games):

28.8 PPG, 7.2 RPG, 3 APG, 1.2 SPG, 1.1 BPG, 56% TS, 113 ORtg 

In '79, the spurs faced the defending champion bullets in the ECF, with a heartbreaking 2 pt game 7 loss. Gervin scored 42 pts in the game, including 24 in the 2nd half. The spurs and bullets ranked 1st and 2nd in SRS respectively that season.

In '82, the spurs made a mid season trade for talented scorer Mike Mitchell. He would only appear in 57 games for the spurs, and gervin still led the spurs to the 7th best SRS in the league. For context as owly mentioned, Ron brewer was pretty productive that season before being traded for Mitchell: https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/SAS/1982.html. They would fall to the eventual NBA champion lakers (4th in SRS) in the WCF.

In '83, the spurs (6th in SRS) would again fall to the lakers (3rd in SRS) in the WCF. Gervin and Mitchell both had solid performances in the post season that year, but simply weren't enough for a deep lakers roster that featured magic, kareem, nixon, wilkes, mcadoo and cooper.

Had gervin and gilmore had more time together during each other's primes, i'm sure both would have helped each other to further playoff success.

The Captain
On their way to the championship in 1970, Wllis helped the Knicks knock off two of the most dominant centers of all time in Wilt and Kareem. Undersized for a center at 6’9”, his brute strength and good defensive instincts were still able to deter them. He also had a great outside shot for a big man, which was very effective against Wilt in his later years. He would again get the best of Wilt in '73 when the Knicks took down the Lakers in the finals.

I don’t have a problem with questioning his 2 finals MVPs relative to Clyde’s level of play in those series. However, I don’t doubt that Reed was a player whose impact went beyond the box score, and I’d say that’s what voters were recognizing when selecting him as finals MVP in both seasons. This was best exemplified in the famous moment when reed came through the tunnel in game 7 of the '70 finals:

Watch on YouTube

As the Lakers were warming up, they froze as they saw Willis coming onto the court (he had previously missed game 6 with a torn muscle in his thigh, and no one expected him to play). He hit his first 2 jumpers, and the rest was history. Dramatic narrative? Of course, but Clyde himself said they wouldn’t have had the confidence to go out there and perform like they did without their captain leading the way. When you have the talent to back it up as willis did, that makes a difference.

He was certainly deserving of winning regular season MVP in 1970, leading the Knicks to a 60-22 record and the #1 ranked SRS in the league. He put together season averages of 21.7 PPG, 13.9 RPG, 2 APG, 50.7 FG, 75.6% FT, 55.2% TS, +4.1 rTS.

From '69-'73, reed would anchor a Knicks defense that ranked in the top 3rd of the league for 4 seasons:

'69 - 4th
'70 - 1st
'71 - 2nd
'73 - 4th

The season after reed retired, the Knicks dropped to 11th (of 18) in DRtg. Yes, I'm aware there are other factors in the high DRtgs given the overall strength of the rosters, and this drop off the season he retired included other roster subtractions. Even still, his impact on that end of the floor was clear, as was the ability to lead a group of players to what’s often considered one of the best stretches of “team play” in NBA history.

[AEnigma]

Our first truly low discussion thread. Hope we can get some additional votes at least (outside of Doc’s customary submission closer to the deadline).

[trelos6]

Our first truly low discussion thread. Hope we can get some additional votes at least (outside of Doc’s customary submission closer to the deadline).

Everyone’s on the new years hangover. Hopefully it picks back up for #60

[HeartBreakKid]

im abroad, so dont have much to say. the candidates are the same as the last thread too

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Induction Vote #1: George Gervin

I guess I'll pile on since he's got this wrapped up, to help get him below 60. For all the reasons everyone has said.

Nomination Vote #1: Dikembe Mutombo

Of the current nominees being discussed, I went back and forth between Parish and Mutombo and, while Parish has more longevity and the championships, I just, for the moment, feel like Mutombo peaked a bit higher - they scored on comparable efficiency and while Parish was a great defender himself, it's just a bit hard to imagine he was more impactful than Dikembe on that end.

I could change my mind though.

[homecourtloss]

Vote: Nate Thurmond
Alt vote:Alonzo Mourning (open to arguments for others here)

Nate Thurmond

When you watch Thurmond play, you can see his seemingly innate ability to read the game and anticipate opponents' moves/movement. The offensive schemes at the time that he played called for a certain type of defense, but I think that he would’ve also been great defensively in an open space and pace game because of his high basketball, IQ and understanding of opponents’ strategies that allow him to disrupt offensive actions opponent offensive actions. His strength and agility allowed him to guard players across multiple positions, making him a versatile defensive force. Then there was his relentless motor and as has been discussed before, any player with the motor like that combined with talent is a massive plus player, which the data that we have seems to bear out:



Alonzo Mourning:

High-motor defensive monster who could provide efficacious scoring (oddly stopped shooting FTs well after he left Charlotte). Shows up well in Moonbeam’s RWoWY set and Englemann’s PI RAPM, 1997-2022

[penbeast0]

My favorite Gervin season was 81 when he and James Silas (my all time favorite Spur) led a team with a starting front line of George Johnson, Mark Olberding, and rookie Reggie Johnson (front line reserves Dave Corzine, John Shumate, and Paul Griffin) to a 7 game playoff loss to the Moses Malone led Houston team that went to the finals. They had rookie Johnny Moore and half a season of Ron Brewer off the bench in the backcourt for more excitement when their two big guards sat. But seriously, has any franchise ever gone to the playoffs with that consistent a bunch of mediocre rotation bigs?