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Whose performance was better?

For me it's Kyrie, if only because of his Finals performance against a formidable opponent.

Murray wins this going away purely statistically, which is actually kind of shocking.

EmpireFalls wrote:Murray wins this going away purely statistically, which is actually kind of shocking.

I'm not sure he does:

Kyrie - 36.3pts, 6.7assts, 4.2rbs, 2.5stls, 0.9blks, 3.3tos per 100 poss; 24.4 PER, 6.0 BPM, ~+13rORTG
Murray - 33.2pts, 9.0assts, 7.2rbs, 1.9stls, 0.3blks, 3.2tos per 100 poss; 21.6 PER, 4.8 BPM, ~+6.5rORTG

Kyrie may have the slight advantage here.

magicman1978 wrote:

EmpireFalls wrote:Murray wins this going away purely statistically, which is actually kind of shocking.

I'm not sure he does:

Kyrie - 36.3pts, 6.7assts, 4.2rbs, 2.5stls, 0.9blks, 3.3tos per 100 poss; 24.4 PER, 6.0 BPM, ~+13rORTG
Murray - 33.2pts, 9.0assts, 7.2rbs, 1.9stls, 0.3blks, 3.2tos per 100 poss; 21.6 PER, 4.8 BPM, ~+6.5rORTG

Kyrie may have the slight advantage here.

That is per possession though(and fwiw murray had an edge on the defensive counting numbers as well). Think Murray warrants some credit for averaging 4 extra minutes.

But the biggest disparity here is defensive. Nuggets got a point worse with Jamal defensively in the playoffs(2 tenths over a larger rs sample).

Cavs got 6 points worse defensively over the course of the season with Kyrie, and 15 points worse over the smaller playoff sample. Incidentally, even during the best series of his career, Kyrie was cooked by Steph 1 v 1. This holds true with pretty much any lineup permutation over any chosen sample.

By WOWY, they got 3 points worse.

The main reason the cavs were bad without Lebron those years was their defense. The 2nd best player being a sieve on that end played a big role there.

OhayoKD wrote:

magicman1978 wrote:

EmpireFalls wrote:Murray wins this going away purely statistically, which is actually kind of shocking.

I'm not sure he does:

Kyrie - 36.3pts, 6.7assts, 4.2rbs, 2.5stls, 0.9blks, 3.3tos per 100 poss; 24.4 PER, 6.0 BPM, ~+13rORTG
Murray - 33.2pts, 9.0assts, 7.2rbs, 1.9stls, 0.3blks, 3.2tos per 100 poss; 21.6 PER, 4.8 BPM, ~+6.5rORTG

Kyrie may have the slight advantage here.

That is per possession though(and fwiw murray had an edge on the defensive counting numbers as well). Think Murray warrants some credit for averaging 4 extra minutes.

But the biggest disparity here is defensive. Nuggets got a point worse with Jamal defensively in the playoffs(2 tenths over a larger rs sample).

Cavs got 6 points worse defensively over the course of the season with Kyrie, and 15 points worse over the smaller playoff sample. Incidentally, even during the best series of his career, Kyrie was cooked by Steph 1 v 1. This holds true with pretty much any lineup permutation over any chosen sample.

By WOWY, they got 3 points worse.

The main reason the cavs were bad without Lebron those years was their defense. The 2nd best player being a sieve on that end played a big role there.

I was responding to "Murray wins this going away purely statistically" comment. Murray played 40 minutes vs 37 minutes for Kyree. I don't think playing 3 extra minutes is going to impact your per 100 counting stats that much so stand by my statement that Kyree having a slight advantage there.

Murray is definitely better defensive, but likely not as big as the numbers you show may indicate. Having to face the 14th, 20th, 23rd, and 25th best offenses in the league vs 22nd, 13th, 5th, and 1st best plays a factor. Murray would have struggled defensively against prime Steph and that GS offense as well.

magicman1978 wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

magicman1978 wrote:
I'm not sure he does:

Kyrie - 36.3pts, 6.7assts, 4.2rbs, 2.5stls, 0.9blks, 3.3tos per 100 poss; 24.4 PER, 6.0 BPM, ~+13rORTG
Murray - 33.2pts, 9.0assts, 7.2rbs, 1.9stls, 0.3blks, 3.2tos per 100 poss; 21.6 PER, 4.8 BPM, ~+6.5rORTG

Kyrie may have the slight advantage here.

That is per possession though(and fwiw murray had an edge on the defensive counting numbers as well). Think Murray warrants some credit for averaging 4 extra minutes.

But the biggest disparity here is defensive. Nuggets got a point worse with Jamal defensively in the playoffs(2 tenths over a larger rs sample).

Cavs got 6 points worse defensively over the course of the season with Kyrie, and 15 points worse over the smaller playoff sample. Incidentally, even during the best series of his career, Kyrie was cooked by Steph 1 v 1. This holds true with pretty much any lineup permutation over any chosen sample.

By WOWY, they got 3 points worse.

The main reason the cavs were bad without Lebron those years was their defense. The 2nd best player being a sieve on that end played a big role there.

I was responding to "Murray wins this going away purely statistically" comment. Murray played 40 minutes vs 37 minutes for Kyree. I don't think playing 3 extra minutes is going to impact your per 100 counting stats that much so stand by my statement that Kyree having a slight advantage there.

Well I'm not going to argue "going away", at least not on the basis of counting numbers

Murray has a pretty big ast:tov advantage and rebounding advantage. I think you'd have to give kyrie's defensive counting numbers eight to say he wins "statistically". You list some all-in-ones, but obviously all-in-ones can be flipped to murray by weighing scoring less and assists:tov or rebounds(some merit as a proxy for size i think) more. I'm guessing kyrie has an effeciency advantage here you omitted for scoring. It's not a big difference but seems fair as a tiebreaker.

I think "cold" data favors Murray strongly(defense probably making the biggest part of that), but that is mostly regular-season based. The Cavs were postseason risers though it might be notable that kyrie/love lineups get worse without Lebron while Murray lineups improved with and without Jokic per PBP.

Murray is definitely better defensive, but likely not as big as the numbers you show may indicate. Having to face the 14th, 20th, 23rd, and 25th best offenses in the league vs 22nd, 13th, 5th, and 1st best plays a factor. Murray would have struggled defensively against prime Steph and that GS offense as well.

Sure.

Kyrie had a special final three games in 2016 against the best competiton, so that has to be taken in consideration, but overall playoffs, his poor defense limited the Cavs’ runs (look at that sharp contrast in DRtg with and without Kyrie). As you can see, the Cavs did well with Kyrie on the bench and Kyrie without LeBron struggled while LeBron+non Kyrie lineups were blowing teams out.




Meanwhile, Murray was keeping the Nuggets afloat without Jokic and Jokic wasn’t without Murray (Yes, yes, small sample sizes, etc., but the contrasts are rather stark).

Very good comparison. Kyrie is a bit better offensively but also a bigger defensive liability. It comes down to how Kyrie took over the last couple of games against the Warriors. He really showed up in the key moments and so the tiebreaker goes to Kyrie for me. Of course Murray didn't have a chance to do that as the Nuggets were never pushed to the brink and he's a great choice too. But I just think gun to my head, Kyrie's performance is more special historically because of the that context, fair or not.

Easily Murray.

Per Backpicks
'16 Kyrie playoffs:
28.8 adj. Pts/75, +4.6 rTS, 5.0 Asts/75, 5.5 PasserRtg, 5.7 BPM, 2.2 AuPM/g

'23 Murray playoffs:
24.0 adj. Pts/75, +0.5 rTS, 6.8 Asts/75, 7.5 PasserRtg, 5.2 BPM, 3.9 AuPM/g'

While Kyrie has pretty clearly better scoring numbers, Murray seems to have a passing edge. Overall, I'd still have to say Kyrie had a better run however.