RealGM

How many seasons of LeBron you favour less than Jokic 23'? Specifically do you take Jokic over any of the championship seasons, 12', 13', 16', 20'

Ready to see some heinous answers on here

I'll take every prime Lebron year to start

I'd definitely take Jokic over 2004-08, 2019, 2021-24 James. That leaves us with 2009-18 and 2020.

I am confident with taking Jokic over 2011 James and even though his postseason run was quite impressive, I prefer that over 2015 as well. 2020 is another one I'd probably put below 2023 Jokic.

That leaves us with 2009-10, 2012-14 and 2016-18. I guess you may argue that some of them are not better, but these are not clear to me. Truly insane how spectacular James prime is.

70sFan wrote:I'd definitely take Jokic over 2004-08, 2019, 2021-24 James. That leaves us with 2009-18 and 2020.

I am confident with taking Jokic over 2011 James and even though his postseason run was quite impressive, I prefer that over 2015 as well. 2020 is another one I'd probably put below 2023 Jokic.

That leaves us with 2009-10, 2012-14 and 2016-18. I guess you may argue that some of them are not better, but these are not clear to me. Truly insane how spectacular James prime is.

I think this is pretty accurate.

Setting aside "talent is so much better now" or "bigs have way more absolute value"...

As I'd say with anyone from the last 50 years, arguing against 2009 or 2016(or alternatively whatever lebron years you scale above those two) is kind of silly. Lebron is the clear winner there empirically(lineup-adjusted, real-world data from that and surrounding years), and is incidentally a much better defender outputting as much or more offensively(flat out more in 2009) unless you are just PER-brained. He also is the replication king and has an 11-0 stretch without his team's jamal murray(not to mention that was after ben wallace left).

Anyone pitting Jokic against the very best Lebron years is likely engaging in some logical silliness("this was not his peak, outlier!"), is not using data properly("PER"), or has a very narrow criteria.
 
12 and 13 also seem obvious to me with some contextual consideration, but if people want to take the reduced impact at face-value(and thereby put some year before or after ahead), whatever.

I'd also be skeptical of seeing 2017 as significantly different than 16 but I can understand taking Jokic there. Lebron is pretty far ahead for the 2010 regular season, but if you want to penalize him for a not to standard postseason performance, cool.

2015, 2014, 2018 and 2020 are where I think Jokic's argument becomes "good"

Every other year I'd say Jokic's 2023 becomes "unreasonable to argue against"

So breaking that down i'd go

2 years are clearly better(2009, 2016 or whatever peak years you want to scale above those two)
,
6 years are probably better(2009-10, 2012-2013, 2016, 2017)

10 years can reasonably be argued(2009-2010, 2012-2014, 2015-2018, 2020)

I would probably take 2017/2018 LeBron over Jokic, no for the rest

Asianiac_24 wrote:I would probably take 2017/2018 LeBron over Jokic, no for the rest

What is Jokic's argument against 2009 or 2016

All but 2009, 2012, 2013, 2016, 2017, probably? God that's ridiculous by LeBron.

Unoriginal, but I'd go with LeBron in '09/'10/'12/'13/'16/'17.

I think there’s a decent argument that Jokic 2023 is the best season by anyone ever. It’s an argument I tend to believe actually, so I’m going to go with every season.

lessthanjake wrote:I think there’s a decent argument that Jokic 2023 is the best season by anyone ever. It’s an argument I tend to believe actually, so I’m going to go with every season.

The question is - is it really a decent argument?

70sFan wrote:

lessthanjake wrote:I think there’s a decent argument that Jokic 2023 is the best season by anyone ever. It’s an argument I tend to believe actually, so I’m going to go with every season.

The question is - is it really a decent argument?

I think so, yes. His impact numbers and box score numbers were through the roof. And, of course, that all came along with winning the title in rather dominant fashion (while on a good team of course but certainly not a historically talented one). In terms of eye test, at least from my perspective (i.e. the only eye test I can have), when I watched Jokic I got the very strong impression that I was watching the best basketball player I’ve ever seen. I don’t really see what else there could possibly be to make it at least a decent argument.

09-10, 12-14, 16-17 LeBron > 23 Jokic

Could see one saying LeBron's 2011, 2018, and 2020 seasons are better too but I'd probably say:
23 Jokic > 04-08, 11, 15, 18, 20, 21-24 LeBron

wafflzgod wrote:09-10, 12-14, 16-17 LeBron > 23 Jokic

Could see one saying LeBron's 2011, 2018, and 2020 seasons are better too but I'd probably say:
23 Jokic > 04-08, 11, 15, 18, 20, 21-24 LeBron

Can you really? People make it all about the finals, but he wasn't anywhere near himself in surrounding years if you go by the regular-season or the first three-rounds of the playoffs.

If you want to throw a curveball, 2015 is alot easier to defend.

OhayoKD wrote:

wafflzgod wrote:09-10, 12-14, 16-17 LeBron > 23 Jokic

Could see one saying LeBron's 2011, 2018, and 2020 seasons are better too but I'd probably say:
23 Jokic > 04-08, 11, 15, 18, 20, 21-24 LeBron

Can you really? People make it all about the finals, but he wasn't anywhere near himself in surrounding years if you go by the regular-season or the first three-rounds of the playoffs.

If you want to throw a curveball, 2015 is alot easier to defend.

Think it depends on how much you actually value his surface-level impact in a non-ideal situation/role that season. I also think it has a decent argument as his best defensive campaign.

This really is the only place where 2018 bron isn’t a top 8 season for him lol

70sFan wrote:

lessthanjake wrote:I think there’s a decent argument that Jokic 2023 is the best season by anyone ever. It’s an argument I tend to believe actually, so I’m going to go with every season.

The question is - is it really a decent argument?

I’ll answer this for you

No, there is not right now.

MyUniBroDavis wrote:This really is the only place where 2018 bron isn’t a top 8 season for him lol

I have not seen a comment here suggesting that.

Most have suggested it is not top 7.

wafflzgod wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

wafflzgod wrote:09-10, 12-14, 16-17 LeBron > 23 Jokic

Could see one saying LeBron's 2011, 2018, and 2020 seasons are better too but I'd probably say:
23 Jokic > 04-08, 11, 15, 18, 20, 21-24 LeBron

Can you really? People make it all about the finals, but he wasn't anywhere near himself in surrounding years if you go by the regular-season or the first three-rounds of the playoffs.

If you want to throw a curveball, 2015 is alot easier to defend.

Think it depends on how much you actually value his surface-level impact in a non-ideal situation/role that season. I also think it has a decent argument as his best defensive campaign.

However you value it, in cross-player comparisons I'd say having the concrete stuff(which 2015 does) makes things alot simpler

Moreover, even with the situation angle, his next 2 years are in that same situation and he looks alot better after developing a skillset more suited to playing as a bulkier(and slower) power-forward. 2011 is a nadir in terms of mentality, physical gifts, and skillset. If 2011 Lebron is better than someone, than you may as well say all the Lebrons are better than that someone because that is by some combination of degradation and situation the worst looking one.