Offense: How many players have a case over Lebron?

[Matt15]

Offense only, how many players have a case over Lebron James?

[picko]

You can make a case for a handful of players - such as Jordan, Magic, Curry, Jokic and Nash - but there isn't anyone who is clearly better 'offensively'. At best any advantage is minor, circumstantial and potentially era-specific. We've seen LeBron thrive offensively through a variety of different eras, at an advanced age, throughout a tonne of finals games, at high-and-low pace.

Jordan is very similar in that regard - particularly given how much the game changed from the mid-80s and late-90s. The other major contenders - Magic, Curry, Jokic, Nash - largely excelled in an environment that played to their strengths. We don't know how well their offensive prowess would have adapted to eras where scoring was more challenging.

[ice9]

You can make a case for a handful of players - such as Jordan, Magic, Curry, Jokic and Nash - but there isn't anyone who is clearly better 'offensively'. At best any advantage is minor, circumstantial and potentially era-specific. We've seen LeBron thrive offensively through a variety of different eras, at an advanced age, throughout a tonne of finals games, at high-and-low pace.

Jordan is very similar in that regard - particularly given how much the game changed from the mid-80s and late-90s. The other major contenders - Magic, Curry, Jokic, Nash - largely excelled in an environment that played to their strengths. We don't know how well their offensive prowess would have adapted to eras where scoring was more challenging.

Agree with everything you said, but would make a case for Magic having displayed effectiveness in different environments. By 91 the Lakers pace had cratered to 94.1 (25th in the league), and he was still amazing and remained the second best player in the league. Then, after a 4 year hiatus, he made a comeback attempt and was way more effective than I expected. Pace dropped to 92.4, 4 years off, and still the best player on the team (and one of the better 35+ players we have seen). Limited games and minutes, but a proof of concept.

I know this board is a little lower on Bird, but I would throw him in the tier 1 grouping. Would love to have seen him play in an era that would have encouraged high volume 3pt shooting.

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[eminence]

I'd listen to (prime) cases for: '40's Mikan, Oscar, Magic, MJ, Nash, CP3, Curry, Harden, Jokic

Not all have the same case, so I don't see a coherent system to get them all above LeBron at the same time, his reasonable offensive floor (imo) is probably around ~5th for prime.

[AEnigma]

You can make a case for a handful of players - such as Jordan, Magic, Curry, Jokic and Nash - but there isn't anyone who is clearly better 'offensively'. At best any advantage is minor, circumstantial and potentially era-specific. We've seen LeBron thrive offensively through a variety of different eras, at an advanced age, throughout a tonne of finals games, at high-and-low pace.

Jordan is very similar in that regard - particularly given how much the game changed from the mid-80s and late-90s. The other major contenders - Magic, Curry, Jokic, Nash - largely excelled in an environment that played to their strengths. We don't know how well their offensive prowess would have adapted to eras where scoring was more challenging.

Agree with everything you said, but would make a case for Magic having displayed effectiveness in different environments. By 91 the Lakers pace had cratered to 94.1 (25th in the league), and he was still amazing and remained the second best player in the league. Then, after a 4 year hiatus, he made a comeback attempt and was way more effective than I expected. Pace dropped to 92.4, 4 years off, and still the best player on the team (and one of the better 35+ players we have seen). Limited games and minutes, but a proof of concept.

Seconded on Magic. If anything, he strikes me as the second most proven with different stylistic approaches. Nash’s shifts were more about usage (which we also see with Magic), and then Jordan never led a top offence outside of Jackson’s triangle.

[MiamiBulls]

Quite a few players have a strong case over LeBron:

Nash, Jokic, Magic, Steph, Jordan,

[durantbird]

I'd listen to (prime) cases for: '40's Mikan, Oscar, Magic, MJ, Nash, CP3, Curry, Harden, Jokic

Not all have the same case, so I don't see a coherent system to get them all above LeBron at the same time, his reasonable offensive floor (imo) is probably around ~5th for prime.

Bird?

[eminence]

I'd listen to (prime) cases for: '40's Mikan, Oscar, Magic, MJ, Nash, CP3, Curry, Harden, Jokic

Not all have the same case, so I don't see a coherent system to get them all above LeBron at the same time, his reasonable offensive floor (imo) is probably around ~5th for prime.

Bird?

Not for me.

[rk2023]

I'd listen to (prime) cases for: '40's Mikan, Oscar, Magic, MJ, Nash, CP3, Curry, Harden, Jokic

Not all have the same case, so I don't see a coherent system to get them all above LeBron at the same time, his reasonable offensive floor (imo) is probably around ~5th for prime.

Bird?

Not for me.

Am curious for the case for Paul or Harden at that sort of level, I’m on board with the rest (PS: Nice shout of Oscar)

Others I would add before CP3/JH are Shaq, West, and Bird

[1993Playoffs]

Prime wise? : only MJ , Magic , Jokic

Curry , Harden, Bird etc a few more for regular season but not in the playoffs imo

[eminence]

Bird?

Not for me.

Am curious for the case for Paul or Harden at that sort of level, I’m on board with the rest (PS: Nice shout of Oscar)

Others I would add before CP3/JH are Shaq, West, and Bird

Hey, I just said I'd listen to the arguments

I would have LeBron over either of them (also over Mikan/Oscar/MJ/Jokic). I only have Nash/Magic/Steph over LeBron for offensive prime (Oscar 5th/MJ 6th, not sure after that, may need to think more on my Jokic placement, but that's still being written as well).

But I imagine they'd be strongly reliant on RS data (Harden I see as a below average PO performer, and CP3 is an injury magnet), maybe with a preference for helio type players (CP3/Harden two of the most helio helios to ever helio). I believe CP3 held the offensive on/off record at one point with his '15 season (may still be the record, but I haven't checked). Talk a bit about how CP3's turnover averse nature shows up on the defensive side of plus-minus family stats, so by most conventional understandings we should transfer that to the offensive side (this would also apply to MJ - and maybe others).

[iggymcfrack]

I guess since you didn’t specify between career and peak, you mean either one. I’d say Jordan, Jokic, and Magic for sure. After that it’s tough. Shaq was an incredibly dominant scorer, but didn’t really pass well enough to lift an offense to the same level Bron did. Bird couldn’t score with anywhere near the same volume. Curry has a case for sure. His one way impact in 2016 was incredible if you write off the postseason woes as injury related. Maybe Wilt? I don’t buy his volume scoring years as matching Bron’s value for a second, but if you’re just looking at peak, his ‘67 season was a tour de force where he reached a perfect balance of scoring and passing. Maaaaybe Chris Paul? Feels like a bit of reach, but he was a better passer while being at least a somewhat similar scorer and that’s hard to qualify. Also, his offensive on/offs of +21.9 in 2015 and +21.8 in 2017 are well above LeBron’s peak. Oscar I can’t quite get there. At his peak, he still had a lower AST% than peak Bron in an era where passes were generally simpler and he clearly wasn’t on LeBron’s level as a scorer. Harden and Nash I’m not buying either. Neither one reached LeBron’s level in box stats or offensive on/off even if we look at regular season only.

So I’d say Jordan, Jokic, Magic, Curry, Wilt, and CP3, final answer.

[Doctor MJ]

Offense only, how many players have a case over Lebron James?

Well first I'll say LeBron has a case over everyone just to be clear.

In terms of guys with a case in the other direction, going chronologically:

Oscar
Kareem
Magic
Jordan
Nash
Curry
Jokic

I'll put the caveat about Mikan's 1940s dominance in there, but competition aside, I think he really needed the narrow key of the time to make it happen, and I frankly don't think he was as good as contemporary Paul Arizin after the change was made.

With Oscar, I tend to be gunshy here because I think West has a solid case for surpassing Oscar over the course of their career, and so while Oscar's offensive star to his NBA career is basically the GOAT early-career offensive run, I think his ceiling was not really an impossible thing to match & surpass. And I think Magic & LeBron are two guys I'd generally put above him without too much worry.

With Kareem, I think you're talking about dominance of a relatively weak era and then great longevity. I think I'd put LeBron ahead here too.

Magic would be the guy I'd choose as my offensive GOAT. Longevity is the case against him.

Jordan I tend to give the prime nod over LeBron too, but not as decisively, and then there's longevity.

With Nash you've got something really remarkable where the first few seasons of his career don't look anything like what we'd expect from someone on this list, but the consistency with which he was leading the best offensive teams is like anything else we've seen. I think he's got a case over Magic for example, but I tend to fall back to a "but not in this universe" thing because of his slow start.

Curry is arguably the most important offensive player in NBA history. Zoom out in the development of the NBA and focus just on one rule change, I think it's the 3-point line that's literally the most important inclusion the NBA's ever made. (The rule against goaltending on defense was even more important, but that was established in elite basketball before the NBA existed and the league never played otherwise.)

And then there's Jokic who is currently the king of the NBA especially on offense. He may well end up topping them all, but we're also looking to see what adjustments can be made to mitigate for him. It's possible still he won't be seen as the best offensive player of his generation which would preclude him from topping all in history by definition.

[SinceGatlingWasARookie]

Jordan just plain was better than LeBron.

Give Jordan the floor spaced out by 3 point shooters and the lack of help defenders in the paint.

Comparing Jordan to LeBron is relatively easy for me because they are similar.

Comparing the top 6 centers to LeBron and Jordan is not so easy for me because the centers played a different game from LeBron and Jordan.

The best centers have a case over both Jordan and LeBron but probably Jordan is number 1 and LeBron number 2.

Jordan had the better drive and better midrange pull up jumper. LeBron was playing point guard and utilized his drive and kick better than Jordan but LeBron had 3 point shooters to kick to.

Neither LeBron nor Jordan were all that great at shooting 3s.

Edit: oops I did not read well enough. The above is for offense and defense. Jordan is still better offense only but the centers lose something if I ignore their impact on defense.

[TheGOATRises007]

I guess since you didn’t specify between career and peak, you mean either one. I’d say Jordan, Jokic, and Magic for sure. After that it’s tough. Shaq was an incredibly dominant scorer, but didn’t really pass well enough to lift an offense to the same level Bron did. Bird couldn’t score with anywhere near the same volume. Curry has a case for sure. His one way impact in 2016 was incredible if you write off the postseason woes as injury related. Maybe Wilt? I don’t buy his volume scoring years as matching Bron’s value for a second, but if you’re just looking at peak, his ‘67 season was a tour de force where he reached a perfect balance of scoring and passing. Maaaaybe Chris Paul? Feels like a bit of reach, but he was a better passer while being at least a somewhat similar scorer and that’s hard to qualify. Also, his offensive on/offs of +21.9 in 2015 and +21.8 in 2017 are well above LeBron’s peak. Oscar I can’t quite get there. At his peak, he still had a lower AST% than peak Bron in an era where passes were generally simpler and he clearly wasn’t on LeBron’s level as a scorer. Harden and Nash I’m not buying either. Neither one reached LeBron’s level in box stats or offensive on/off even if we look at regular season only.

So I’d say Jordan, Jokic, Magic, Curry, Wilt, and CP3, final answer.

Why is CP3 ahead of Nash offensively?

[Cavsfansince84]

For me this is basically asking who I see on a similar tier as LeBron so I would say: Oscar(more so with access to a 3pt line and less congested key), Kareem(mainly because I think he's a solid to good passer on top of the scoring), Magic, MJ, Nash, Jokic and Steph(probably) with West and Harden just below. I also factor in playoffs since its very much relevant imo.

[iggymcfrack]

I guess since you didn’t specify between career and peak, you mean either one. I’d say Jordan, Jokic, and Magic for sure. After that it’s tough. Shaq was an incredibly dominant scorer, but didn’t really pass well enough to lift an offense to the same level Bron did. Bird couldn’t score with anywhere near the same volume. Curry has a case for sure. His one way impact in 2016 was incredible if you write off the postseason woes as injury related. Maybe Wilt? I don’t buy his volume scoring years as matching Bron’s value for a second, but if you’re just looking at peak, his ‘67 season was a tour de force where he reached a perfect balance of scoring and passing. Maaaaybe Chris Paul? Feels like a bit of reach, but he was a better passer while being at least a somewhat similar scorer and that’s hard to qualify. Also, his offensive on/offs of +21.9 in 2015 and +21.8 in 2017 are well above LeBron’s peak. Oscar I can’t quite get there. At his peak, he still had a lower AST% than peak Bron in an era where passes were generally simpler and he clearly wasn’t on LeBron’s level as a scorer. Harden and Nash I’m not buying either. Neither one reached LeBron’s level in box stats or offensive on/off even if we look at regular season only.

So I’d say Jordan, Jokic, Magic, Curry, Wilt, and CP3, final answer.

Why is CP3 ahead of Nash offensively?

Much better scorer, much better box composites, and an offensive on/off that peaked over +21 twice while Nash peaked at +16.9.

[TheGOATRises007]

I guess since you didn’t specify between career and peak, you mean either one. I’d say Jordan, Jokic, and Magic for sure. After that it’s tough. Shaq was an incredibly dominant scorer, but didn’t really pass well enough to lift an offense to the same level Bron did. Bird couldn’t score with anywhere near the same volume. Curry has a case for sure. His one way impact in 2016 was incredible if you write off the postseason woes as injury related. Maybe Wilt? I don’t buy his volume scoring years as matching Bron’s value for a second, but if you’re just looking at peak, his ‘67 season was a tour de force where he reached a perfect balance of scoring and passing. Maaaaybe Chris Paul? Feels like a bit of reach, but he was a better passer while being at least a somewhat similar scorer and that’s hard to qualify. Also, his offensive on/offs of +21.9 in 2015 and +21.8 in 2017 are well above LeBron’s peak. Oscar I can’t quite get there. At his peak, he still had a lower AST% than peak Bron in an era where passes were generally simpler and he clearly wasn’t on LeBron’s level as a scorer. Harden and Nash I’m not buying either. Neither one reached LeBron’s level in box stats or offensive on/off even if we look at regular season only.

So I’d say Jordan, Jokic, Magic, Curry, Wilt, and CP3, final answer.

Why is CP3 ahead of Nash offensively?

Much better scorer, much better box composites, and an offensive on/off that peaked over +21 twice while Nash peaked at +16.9.

Much better scorer seems like a huge stretch. CP3 scored more points on volume, but did so less on lesser efficiency than Nash. I'd argue they're the same level of scorer. Neither good enough to be your best scorer on a title winning team, but suited to the #2 scoring role. Someone like Curry is a much better scorer than Nash. Giving that notch to CP3 as well seems facetious.

Much better box composites I'll concede. Offensive on/off I'll also concede, but why did Nash consistently lead better offenses than CP3 did?

[OhayoKD]

Everyone theoretically has a case but I'd say the only players with a "good" case would be Magic, Nash, and Oscar. Jokic could get there but the results don't support that so far. Ditto with Luka.

[rk2023]

Why is CP3 ahead of Nash offensively?

Much better scorer, much better box composites, and an offensive on/off that peaked over +21 twice while Nash peaked at +16.9.

Much better scorer seems like a huge stretch. CP3 scored more points on volume, but did so less on lesser efficiency than Nash. I'd argue they're the same level of scorer. Neither good enough to be your best scorer on a title winning team, but suited to the #2 scoring role. Someone like Curry is a much better scorer than Nash. Giving that notch to CP3 as well seems facetious.

Much better box composites I'll concede. Offensive on/off I'll also concede, but why did Nash consistently lead better offenses than CP3 did?

If you look at the way each of them played, coming to a Paul > Nash conclusion on offense (unless you're using longevity to assess, which is not where I'm coming from here) seems to be a very hard sell.

Paul scored somewhat more, but Nash was a more efficient scorer - and much better finishing at the rim (definitely a bump or a few over clippers CP3, but maybe not Hornets). Because he could attack the teeth of defenses better and have the threat of taking tougher & more contested shots if/when needed, Nash also warped defenses more to give him a playmaking edge not seen by Paul. Not to mention being much more an exploitative (eg. high risk, high reward) passer opposed to Paul's methodical framework playmaking.

Some more granular box metrics do depict this imo (RS | PS Format).

Paul from 2008-17:
Passer Ratings of 8.4 -> 7.7
Box Creations of 13.4 -> 13.1
PlayVals of 2.1 -> 1.8
Playoff OBPM of 5.2 (Backpicks model)

Nash from 2005-10:
Passer Ratings of 9.3 -> 8.5
Box Creations of 14.2 -> 14.3
PlayVals of 2.5 -> 2.4
Playoff OBPM of 5.7 (Backpicks model)