RealGM

Prime only, how would you rank them from 1-4?

West
Kobe
Dirk
Julius

West
Julius
Dirk/Kobe(can't really decide)

This is mostly relative era for me.

I do not think West has much of a case here in any absolute sense. I also think he has the easiest case when measuring how much he stood out compared to the league average player in his time.

AEnigma wrote:I do not think West has much of a case here in any absolute sense. I also think he has the easiest case when measuring how much he stood out compared to the league average player in his time.

I find this take fascinating, as I think West was a hyper modern player stuck in the 60s. He was an efficient slasher in a clogged paint, and could shoot from a pretty good distance, and was a good enough passer to be a helio today. A 6 ft 4 version of Kevin Durant on offense with Jason Kidd like defense seems pretty good for the modern game

West
Dirk
Dr. J.
Kobe

West > Kobe > Dirk > Dr. J

Rishkar wrote:

AEnigma wrote:I do not think West has much of a case here in any absolute sense. I also think he has the easiest case when measuring how much he stood out compared to the league average player in his time.

I find this take fascinating, as I think West was a hyper modern player stuck in the 60s. He was an efficient slasher in a clogged paint, and could shoot from a pretty good distance, and was a good enough passer to be a helio today. A 6 ft 4 version of Kevin Durant on offense with Jason Kidd like defense seems pretty good for the modern game

“Stuck” implies it was a disadvantage for him to be playing in a league with rudimentary guard play. Why would he have Jason Kidd -like defence against modern guards? Why would he be a better scorer against broadly improved collective defences?

I think understanding the history of the league means appreciating those who stood out in their time, but the best thing you can say about West in the absolute over someone like Kobe is that he had Manu-like instincts for making the “right” play. And there are rightly only a couple of people here who are going to ever take prime Manu over prime Kobe, even assuming West translates that well to a modern league.

AEnigma wrote:“Stuck” implies it was a disadvantage for him to be playing in a league with rudimentary guard play. Why would he have Jason Kidd -like defence against modern guards? Why would he be a better scorer against broadly improved collective defences?

I think understanding the history of the league means appreciating those who stood out in their time, but the best thing you can say about West in the absolute over someone like Kobe is that he had Manu-like instincts for making the “right” play. And there are rightly only a couple of people here who are going to ever take prime Manu over prime Kobe, even assuming West translates that well to a modern league.

I would say West was the better defender, maybe the better driver(considering dribbling rules in his era), probably his equal if not better from 18 ft in and I think would be the better 3 pt shooter if he gets to practice from that range much at all. Also, his turn around from 15ft in was almost unguardable with his size/length. Then on top of that intangibles wise, he was one of the toughest guards ever while Kobe is most known for being very hard to get along with, especially early on. Those are all things I'd say West was better at in a vacuum.

I'd take West over Kobe. Fewer ego issues, better playmaker, very much a strong scoring model regardless. Probably listed at like 6'5 today, quality size, great wingspan.

I'd probably top with West, then take Kobe, then Dirk, then Doctor J.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

AEnigma wrote:“Stuck” implies it was a disadvantage for him to be playing in a league with rudimentary guard play. Why would he have Jason Kidd -like defence against modern guards? Why would he be a better scorer against broadly improved collective defences?

I think understanding the history of the league means appreciating those who stood out in their time, but the best thing you can say about West in the absolute over someone like Kobe is that he had Manu-like instincts for making the “right” play. And there are rightly only a couple of people here who are going to ever take prime Manu over prime Kobe, even assuming West translates that well to a modern league.

I would say West was the better defender, maybe the better driver(considering dribbling rules in his era), probably his equal if not better from 18 ft in and I think would be the better 3 pt shooter if he gets to practice from that range much at all. Also, his turn around from 15ft in was almost unguardable with his size/length.

Yeah see I just fundamentally disagree with almost all of that in the absolute and distinguished from that selective “feel for the game” I mentioned.

Dribbling rules is already an era related stipulation; there is no reason to just grant West a better handle than an elite ballhandler like Kobe.

Defence, maybe you can call him a more committed and smarter help defender, but if doing the same things on a given play, I would definitely trust Kobe for having been provably disruptive against better perimetre players.

I do not think West is a better shot than Kobe facing the type of defence Kobe faced. Shot difficulty skews hard toward Kobe regardless of the league’s defensive rating, so again where there is an advantage for West would be specifically in his pursuit of easier shots.

I have never understood the shooting accuracy comments. The closest correlative proxy we have is free throw shooting, and Kobe was a better free throw shooter both for career and respective primes. Other forward-projecting comparisons can talk about West’s willingness to take some deep shots relative to his contemporaries, but in this comparison that is irrelevant.

AEnigma wrote:Yeah see I just fundamentally disagree with almost all of that in the absolute and distinguished from that selective “feel for the game” I mentioned.

Dribbling rules is already an era related stipulation; there is no reason to just grant West a better handle than an elite ballhandler like Kobe.

Defence, maybe you can call him a more committed and smarter help defender, but if doing the same things on a given play, I would definitely trust Kobe for having been provably disruptive against better perimetre players.

I do not think West is a better shot than Kobe facing the type of defence Kobe faced. Shot difficulty skews hard toward Kobe regardless of the league’s defensive rating, so again where there is an advantage for West would be specifically in his pursuit of easier shots.

I have never understood the shooting accuracy comments. The closest correlative proxy we have is free throw shooting, and Kobe was a better free throw shooter both for career and respective primes. Other forward-projecting comparisons can talk about West’s willingness to take some deep shots relative to his contemporaries, but in this comparison that is irrelevant.

I wasn't saying a better ball handler. I said better driver(perhaps) and included dribbling rules because it was harder to get past a guy with the rules of the 60's and how easily off fouls were called. A lot of this I would say they are very close so it could be argued either way. Things like Kobe's shot selection and chemistry issues tend to work against him though all other things being equal.

Dirk and Dr J are way in front.

Prime only, assuming health (which would hurt West the most if you include it), I would also have West on top.

West
Erving
Kobe
Dirk

If you include health issues, Kobe may move up the chain and West down.

Era relative:
West
Kobe
Dirk
Dr. J

First three are extremely close IMO.

West/Kobe

Dirk


Dr.J

Kobe
West
Dirk
Erving