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Just wanted to see how the board views him relative to what you see as the goat tier(which for some might be 1 player but for others could be 4 or more).

The GOAT candidates for me . . . Russell, MJ, and LeBron, are all dominant in multiple ways.

Russell is the GOAT defensive force, the GOAT winning force (yes, rings), and even a GOAT level rebounder.
Jordan is the GOAT scoring force, GOAT level in winning even if not up to the Russell standard, and a strong defender besides.
LeBron is a GOAT level scorer, GOAT level versatility, probably the GOAT longevity and a strong defender.
Jokic might be GOAT level offensive tool with his playmaking. He's an outstanding scorer but not GOAT level, a weak defender, plays limited minutes, and hasn't played a ton of seasons compared to the GOAT tier guys nor has he won a lot of titles compared to those guys. Right now he's more competing with Giannis for best player in the league than competing with Kareem for the #4 spot on the GOAT list. If he continues as strong as he has so far for another 8 years, wins another 4 titles, or significantly ups his scoring ability to at least the prime LeBron level, then talk about GOAT tier.

I have a pretty generous definition of Goat tier; I have Russell, Lebron, Jordan, and Kareem as being the strong candidates (with Duncan and Wilt having dark horse cases). Jokic can definitely crack that tier, I already view him as tied with Steve Nash for the title of best offensive player, I view him as an above average defender, and I think he has a game that will age really well

penbeast0 wrote:The GOAT candidates for me . . . Russell, MJ, and LeBron, are all dominant in multiple ways.

Russell is the GOAT defensive force, the GOAT winning force (yes, rings), and even a GOAT level rebounder.
Jordan is the GOAT scoring force, GOAT level in winning even if not up to the Russell standard, and a strong defender besides.
LeBron is a GOAT level scorer, GOAT level versatility, probably the GOAT longevity and a strong defender.
Jokic might be GOAT level offensive tool with his playmaking. He's an outstanding scorer but not GOAT level, a weak defender, plays limited minutes, and hasn't played a ton of seasons compared to the GOAT tier guys nor has he won a lot of titles compared to those guys. Right now he's more competing with Giannis for best player in the league than competing with Kareem for the #4 spot on the GOAT list. If he continues as strong as he has so far for another 8 years, wins another 4 titles, or significantly ups his scoring ability to at least the prime LeBron level, then talk about GOAT tier.

I can respect everything you said but I would add that Jokic may not be goat tier rebounder but he's pretty damn good. As in his reb%'s are up there if not surpassing prime Duncan, KG, Shaq, etc. So I think that deserves a mention.

I have Jordan, LeBron, and Kareem as kind of 1a and Duncan as kind of 1b.

I do think Jokic is on their level, but yeah, he needs to win and keep playing to substantiate it.

His defensive liabilities will always make me hesitant to even call him the best Center ever regardless of how many rings

Watching the 4th quarter of yesterday's game vs Philadelphia where Embiid was killing it, he should have asked to guard his opposite number. But he (and his coaching staff) know he is a huge liability 1 on 1 drawn away from the basket vs Embiid.

You don't obviously expect him to guard his opposite # for 35-40 minutes as the primary defender, but with only 2 fouls in the 4th quarter he still couldn't guard Embiid?

Even Centers I have him ranked ahead of like Ewing or David Robinson if Embiid was killing their team they'd have tried to stop the bleeding.

How can you be the GOAT when your flaw is so glaring that you have to be hidden or hope you don't run into certain matchups?

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:His defensive liabilities will always make me hesitant to even call him the best Center ever regardless of how many rings

Watching the 4th quarter of yesterday's game vs Philadelphia where Embiid was killing it, he should have asked to guard his opposite number. But he (and his coaching staff) know he is a huge liability 1 on 1 drawn away from the basket vs Embiid.

You don't obviously expect him to guard his opposite # for 35-40 minutes as the primary defender, but with only 2 fouls in the 4th quarter he still couldn't guard Embiid?

Even Centers I have him ranked ahead of like Ewing or David Robinson if Embiid was killing their team they'd have tried to stop the bleeding.

How can you be the GOAT when your flaw is so glaring that you have to be hidden or hope you don't run into certain matchups?

Jokic guarded Embiid in the last minutes of the game though. He actually guarded Embiid more than vice versa (though neither did that much).

70sFan wrote:

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:His defensive liabilities will always make me hesitant to even call him the best Center ever regardless of how many rings

Watching the 4th quarter of yesterday's game vs Philadelphia where Embiid was killing it, he should have asked to guard his opposite number. But he (and his coaching staff) know he is a huge liability 1 on 1 drawn away from the basket vs Embiid.

You don't obviously expect him to guard his opposite # for 35-40 minutes as the primary defender, but with only 2 fouls in the 4th quarter he still couldn't guard Embiid?

Even Centers I have him ranked ahead of like Ewing or David Robinson if Embiid was killing their team they'd have tried to stop the bleeding.

How can you be the GOAT when your flaw is so glaring that you have to be hidden or hope you don't run into certain matchups?

Jokic guarded Embiid in the last minutes of the game though. He actually guarded Embiid more than vice versa (though neither did that much).

He didn't do anything of the sort.

All the top guys have very impressive resumes. Lots of accolades.

That isn't necessarily true of Jokic yet but he's also only 28. Is his resume at 28 any worse than Jordan or LeBron or KAJ?

His career isn't yet a finished product and he's clearly not declining so I tend not to worry about 'all-time' placings. But yes, if he finished his career with two MVPs and a single title then you probably aren't going to get much traction in any debate against the all-time greats.

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:

70sFan wrote:

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:His defensive liabilities will always make me hesitant to even call him the best Center ever regardless of how many rings

Watching the 4th quarter of yesterday's game vs Philadelphia where Embiid was killing it, he should have asked to guard his opposite number. But he (and his coaching staff) know he is a huge liability 1 on 1 drawn away from the basket vs Embiid.

You don't obviously expect him to guard his opposite # for 35-40 minutes as the primary defender, but with only 2 fouls in the 4th quarter he still couldn't guard Embiid?

Even Centers I have him ranked ahead of like Ewing or David Robinson if Embiid was killing their team they'd have tried to stop the bleeding.

How can you be the GOAT when your flaw is so glaring that you have to be hidden or hope you don't run into certain matchups?

Jokic guarded Embiid in the last minutes of the game though. He actually guarded Embiid more than vice versa (though neither did that much).

He didn't do anything of the sort.

https://fishker.com/1196-2/

4th quarter

Possession starts at 5:06 left: Jokic guards Embiid, Embiid makes three
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid, gets switched
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid, but traps P&R and changes matchup
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid, but traps P&R
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid, steals the ball
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid, Embiid misses three
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid, helps on a drive
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid, got blown by on P&R

Then Nuggets started fouling Philly. You can say that Jokic wasn't effective at guarding Embiid or that he was forced to leave him a few times guarding P&Rs, but you can't say he didn't guard him. As you may know, banging in the post is not the only way to defend another bigman.

70sFan wrote:

FuShengTHEGreat wrote:

70sFan wrote:Jokic guarded Embiid in the last minutes of the game though. He actually guarded Embiid more than vice versa (though neither did that much).

He didn't do anything of the sort.

https://fishker.com/1196-2/

4th quarter

Possession starts at 5:06 left: Jokic guards Embiid, Embiid makes three
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid, gets switched
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid, but traps P&R and changes matchup
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid, but traps P&R
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid, steals the ball
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid, Embiid misses three
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid, helps on a drive
Next possession: Jokic guards Embiid, got blown by on P&R

Then Nuggets started fouling Philly. You can say that Jokic wasn't effective at guarding Embiid or that he was forced to leave him a few times guarding P&Rs, but you can't say he didn't guard him. As you may know, banging in the post is not the only way to defend another bigman.

Miss me with that.

3:49 to 3:52 pretty much sums up Jokic "guarding" Joel late in the 4th.

https://youtu.be/CguSR60i96U?si=JzoMyhosn4ZrkzD-

Joel has the ball in transition and drives the ball from the 3 pt line at Nikola waiting in the paint. Nikola makes like a bullfighter with a red towel in his hand about to be gored and casually slides to the side rather than meet Joel. He only had like 2 or 3 fouls at most at the time, he should at least have fouled him instead of giving up a easy uncontested layup.

I won't blame him for getting a 3 drilled on himat 4:15 as he tried to contest,but the other baskets like 4:00 & 4:02 are Gordon with foul trouble getting burned 1 ion 1 while Jokic was on Batum.

Even announcers could be heard saying in the 4th both of them barely have any fouls it'd be good if they tried ro guard each other more. But Embiid was the more punishing player so the onus moreso shoulda been on Jokic.

The answer for me is yes. But Jokic getting several more rings essentially presupposes that Jokic will also have significant longevity as a very top-level player (because otherwise how would he get a bunch more rings?). So we are assuming away *two* things that would currently keep him away from the GOAT discussion. But yeah, if Jokic keeps playing like this and he wins ~5 rings, then he’s in the GOAT discussion for sure.

I think for me, time is the main barrier to him being in that conversation, as his career isn't quite long enough. More rings and accolades would ultimately help too, of course, but the level of play is pretty clearly there.

Yes basically. No player will be considered GOAT tier without a lot of rings even if their level of play warrants it. It's just how it is. Jokic has the potential to be in the discussion one day for sure.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:Are rings the primary thing that would keep Jokic from getting to the goat tier in your mind?

Well, rings are not a cause but a result, so while there's no doubt that whatever the results end up being will suggest a lot about where Jokic stacks up, I think it's most useful to look at cause.

And there I think the big thing is that we do not yet know how Jokic will end up being perceived compared with his contemporaries. There are other players that will factor in here, but the comparison with Embiid is going to loom particularly large when all is said and done. As two centers who came from the same draft class, and who have been battling for MVPs in a way that is driving Jokic supporters and Embiid supporters into increasingly antagonistic relationships, if one of these guys clearly ends up getting the better of the other, I don't think the other will be seen as a GOAT candidate. Simple as that.

I've long sided with Jokic here over Embiid, but not because I make any claim to know how things will go going forward. My statements are about what we've seen so far.

Beyond those that are of his generation and those who may come in later generation, there's the long shadow of LeBron. It's not just possible that the body of LeBron's work will prove to be such a mountain that it's just clear that Jokic isn't able to match, but likely. Jokic could end up still being argued to be better at peak of course, but LeBron's peak is pretty sky-high himself.

No. His defensive weaknesses are too glaring to ignore, and that will most likely keep him off of Mt.Rushmore for me.

He's got 7 seasons of video game numbers and a ring already.

give him 5 more rings, along with the all-NBA/MVP/FMVPs that go along with it and it'll be hard to deny him a seat at the table. And if it's all with Denver with Jamal Murray as his robin? Sheesh. You can cry foul about the defense all you want but that's pretty close to shutting down the entire conversation for me. he can retire in 2028 (33 years old) to go race horses and it's still a wrap.

Quick shorthand, I would want at least ten years as the league’s best player (any more specifically longevity skewed argument is basically impossible). Right now I give him only 2023, plus an at least understandable case in 2022.

If we want to separate “greatness” from quality of play, then I agree with Pistol that I need to see better defence from him.

pancakes3 wrote:He's got 7 seasons of video game numbers and a ring already.

give him 5 more rings, along with the all-NBA/MVP/FMVPs that go along with it and it'll be hard to deny him a seat at the table. And if it's all with Denver with Jamal Murray as his robin? Sheesh. You can cry foul about the defense all you want but that's pretty close to shutting down the entire conversation for me. he can retire in 2028 (33 years old) to go race horses and it's still a wrap.

You seem to be suggesting that Murray is subpar? 25ppg on 58.7 TS%, 47/40/90, to go along with 5rpg and 6.3apg with a very dynamic scoring game is nothing to scoff at, far from it. Does he benefit from Jokic? Absolutely. Does Jokic benefit from him? Absolutely as well.

Doctor MJ wrote:
Well, rings are not a cause but a result, so while there's no doubt that whatever the results end up being will suggest a lot about where Jokic stacks up, I think it's most useful to look at cause.

And there I think the big thing is that we do not yet know how Jokic will end up being perceived compared with his contemporaries. There are other players that will factor in here, but the comparison with Embiid is going to loom particularly large when all is said and done. As two centers who came from the same draft class, and who have been battling for MVPs in a way that is driving Jokic supporters and Embiid supporters into increasingly antagonistic relationships, if one of these guys clearly ends up getting the better of the other, I don't think the other will be seen as a GOAT candidate. Simple as that.

I've long sided with Jokic here over Embiid, but not because I make any claim to know how things will go going forward. My statements are about what we've seen so far.

It seems sort of strange to me that Embiid is the guy you are bringing up over Giannis. I think Embiid is seen much more in the vein of someone like Harden(though with better defense). As in a guy who can compete for mvps but can't be counted on in the playoffs and relies too much on flopping or things like that to get points. The question of whether his career overlaps with LeBron's too much is sort of interesting though.