HeartBreakKid wrote:70sFan wrote:Doctor MJ wrote:
I think he certainly has a case.
Just speaking for my own process, I can't help but compare teammates, and so the conversation between Billups & the Wallaces tends to loom large. It's generally consensus that Ben & Chauncey did more for the Pistons than Sheed, but I'll also say that I can't help but feel that both Ben & Chauncey are guys I'd rather build the foundation of my contender around than Sheed. You could make a Sheed longevity argument, but a longevity argument is a tough one when you're talking about a guy prone to some self-sabotage even in the best of times.
The thing with Sheed is that his best case over the other two is not his Pistons time, but what he did in Portland. I am aware that he was very problematic, but Blazers did built a contending team around him and I think these seasons are highly underrated historically.
indeed, it's not a "greatest pistons" list. We may as well cite that Billups did not help the Blazers as much as Rasheed (or if we want to be more fair, the T-Wolves, the team that actually drafted him).
So I'll just emphasize something I'm wont to emphasize first:
If you ever think I'm being oversimplistic and not pondering complexities, go back and ask yourself what I'm taking to be obvious enough it would bog down the post if I included it, noting in particular any language I'm using that is non-definitive. I use simple statements as a starting point with discussions, not the end. Not saying I never miss anything of course, but if you've been around a while here - which you and 70s have been - you know I'm not the drunk you meet at a sports bar, I'm a neurotic nerd.
I will say though that it's pretty dang reasonable to point out that Billups was basically a major-prospect-turned-bust for the first half decade of his career, and that is a knock on him compared to the vast majority of guys we discuss in this project, including the Wallaces.
Further, while Billups wasn't as glaringly toxic in attitude as Wallace, I think it's pretty clear we shouldn't be painting an aura around Billups like we do for a lot of other point guards that presumes a super-high BBIQ and exemplary off-court behavior.
If we put a narrative to each guys' journey leading up to their championship together:
Sheed was the big time prospect who succeeded right away but then started going socially haywire and didn't regain harmony until he went somewhere where he could fit in as a role player to an existing culture.
Billups was the big time prospect who failed on his 1st, 2nd, 3rd & 4th teams, but landed in the right spot for his 5th team, and from there had a great career.
Ben was the guy totally off the NBA's radar who probably never gets a second chance in the NBA if he really struggles - let alone has a toxic attitude - but instead quickly went from undrafted to most impactful player on his 1st team, continued to be impactful on his 2nd team, and then became the foundation of a culture on his 3rd team that led to a title - to say nothing of 4 DPOYs for himself.
Up to each to decide how they want to factor these things in if at all, but I will say it definitely helps Ben relative to the other two for me.
Just between Sheed & Billups, frankly if we just went through the Detroit years, I'd call Sheed the better career for reasons that relate to what you pointed out, but then I'm also quite impressed by what Billups did in Denver, as well as departure being the end of Detroit's relevancy despite Sheed (and Rip & Prince) still being on the roster.
Billups departure seeming to matter more than Ben's also is a feather in his cap to be clear, but aside from there being some complications there, I think people see that and tend to think Billups had a better longevity as an impact player than Ben, and as I've alluded to, I don't actually think that was the case.
