RealGM

Colbinii wrote:

ardee wrote:

Colbinii wrote:
Because they disagree with you?

If I'm understanding this correctly you dont think anyone has any argument over Kobe?

In the RS CP3 was close but add in the Playoffs and yeah this is a no brainer season. Like trying to say LeBron wasn't the best in 2017 or 2018.

The lift Kobe was providing was utterly ridiculous, one of the greatest floor raising seasons of all time.

Sent from my SM-G615F using RealGM mobile app

I don't think Kobe was the best player in the Regular Season.

Box-Score (Bolded indicated League Leader)
Kobe: 28.3/6.3/5.4/1.8/0.5
Paul: 21.2/4.0/11.6/2.7/0.1
James: 30.0/7.9/7.2/1.8/1.1

Advanced (Bolded indicated League Leader)
Kobe: 24.2 PER, 57.6 TS%, 43.9% FTR, 13.8 WS, 5.4 BPM, 6.0 VORP; Turnover Economy (23.9 AST%, 11.3 TOV%, 31.4 USG%)
Paul: 28.3 PER, 57.6 TS%, 30.2% FTR, 17.8 WS, 9.2 BPM, 8.5 VORP; Turnover Economy (52.2 AST%, 12.1 TOV%, 25.7 USG%)
James: 29.1 PER, 56.8 TS%, 47.0% FTR, 15.2 WS, 11.2 BPM, 10.1 VORP; Turnover Economy (37.3 AST%, 11.4 TOV%, 33.5 USG%)

Statistically speaking of course, Kobe Bryant does not hold a single argument over either Chris Paul or LeBron James. As you and I both know the game of basketball is more than statistics, but the gap between these guys [albeit small] is clearly in favor of the younger James and Paul at this point in their respective careers.

RE: Floor Raising
Kobe On/Off: +7.0 [Offense 114.4 On, 108.2 Off]
Paul On/Off: +9.0 [Offense 115.2 On, 100.0 Off]
James On/Off: +10.9 [Offense 109.0 On, 96.7 Off]

It appears Offensively that Chris Paul and LeBron James were carrying much larger offensive burdens than that of Kobe Bryant. Now if we delve into the roster construction around these players that isn't surprising. Lamar Odom is arguably the best non-Paul/James/Kobe player on either team [excluding the 27 games of Pau Gasol; clearly superior to any Paul/James teammate] while Bryant/Paul also had the most spacing [Likely Paul over Bryant for this one].

3-Point shooting by teammates
Kobe's Teammates
Farmar: 307 3PA @ 37.1%
Fisher: 276 3PA @ 40.6%
Vujavic: 270 3PA @ 43.7%
Radmanovic: 234 3PA @ 40.6%
Odom: 113 3PA @ 27.4%

Paul's Teammates
Stojakovic: 524 3PA @ 44.1%
Peterson: 287 3PA @ 39.4%
Pargo: 186 3PA @ 34.9%
Jackson: 144 3PA @ 36.8%
Butler: 133 3PA @ 33.1%

James's Teammates*
Jones: 276 3PA @ 41.7%
Gibson: 268 3PA @ 44.0%
Brown: 168 3PA @ 30.8%
Hughes: 126 3PA @ 34.1%
Pavlovic: 114 3PA @ 29.8

*It is worth noting that I chose players who had over 100 3PA/G [Chose a nice round number where players were attempting >1 per game]. Wally and West both shot 36.6% but played in 25/26 games [79/52 attempts respectively].

Looking at these results it appears that Bryant has the best shooters with 3 players converting over 40% [Man I miss the triangle]. While Bryant get's some credit here I don't think we can overstate how valuable a secondary play-maker like Odom [And Gasol] from the post can be. Both Gasol and Odom were tremendous passers while Odom had an ability to see the floor as a Point-Forward for stretches of games.

If we move down to some other data representations of teammate strengths, WS and BPM, while not perfect do capture much of what happens on the court. I will be using players with over 660 Minutes at that is the number Trex used in an earlier post many years ago.

Kobe's Teammates
Odom 9.7 WS/3.8 BPM
Fisher 5.7 WS/-0.3 BPM
Walton 3.2 WS/-0.2 BPM
Farmar 3.9 WS/0.7 BPM
Radmanovic 3.5 WS/1.0 BPM
Turiaf 4.2 WS/1.1 BPM
Vujacic 3.6 WS/-0.2 BPM
Bynum 4.8 WS/4.5 BPM
Gasol 4.6 WS/5.1 BPM

Paul's Teammates
West 8.4 WS/1.1 BPM
Chandler 10.0 WS/2.4 BPM
Stojakovic 8.1 WS/1.8 BPM
Peterson 3.8 WS/-0.1 BPM
Pargo 1.1 WS/-3.1 BPM
Jackson 1.9 WS/0.1 BPM
Butler 1.2 WS/-2.2 BPM
Armstrong 0.5 WS/-3.3 BPM
Bowen 1.5 WS/1.2 BPM

James's Teammates
Ilgauskas 6.1 WS/-0.1 BPM
Gibson 4.1 WS/0.0 BPM
Brown 2.4 WS/-2.2 BPM
Gooden 2.0 WS/-4.2 BPM
Jones 3.0 WS/-2.2 BPM
Varejao 2.4 WS/-1.6 BPM
Hughes 1.1 WS/-2.3 BPM
West 1.7 WS/0.3 BPM
Pavlovic 0.2 WS/-5.1 BPM

Judging from these numbers both the Lakers and Hornets were the two top heavy teams. The Lakers with Odom and then sporadic minutes from the often injured Bynum and late addition Gasol. The Hornets with West, Chandler and Peja all looking like very serviceable players.

Throughout the regular season it is safe to conclude a few things. First is that the Lakers and Hornets had the best supporting casts in the comparison with Cleveland being lapped. The shooting/spacing provided for Bryant and Paul helped both of these players immensely in their offensive roles as ball-dominant scorers and playmakers; something we can't say for James and his cast. Kobe had a secondary playmaker for the entire season; something James and Paul both longed for but never benefited from. It is worth noting that even a player like Jordan Farmar would have been a clear upgrade for the Cavaliers while I can only imagine how much Cleveland could have benefited from a player similar to West or god forbid a rim runner like Chandler or Shooter like Peja.

When we move into the post-season I really don't see a big different. The team with the most talent [Lakers] ended up going the furthest because, as you know, teams win in the post-season. Do we give extra benefit to Kobe Bryant for having the best team and thus advancing the furthest?

Fortunately for us we can compare two different series as Paul and Kobe both played against the Spurs and Bryant and James both played against the Celtics.

Paul and Kobe vs Spurs
Box-Score
Kobe: 29.2/5.6/3.8/1.6
Paul: 23.7/4.4/10.7/2.6

Advanced
Kobe: 58.5 TS%, 56.7 eFG%; Turnover Economy (20.0 AST%, 8.8 TOV%, 32.2 USG%); 113 Ortg/99 Drtg [+14]
Paul: 55.5 TS%, 51.1 eFG%; Turnover Economy (50.7 AST%, 9.7 TOV%, 28.7 USG%); 121 Ortg/107 Drtg [+14]

Statistically speaking these guys are neck and neck. Bryant was a better scorer, Paul a better playmaker and defensively they were close with a slight edge going to Bryant for me due to his slightly more impactful defense at this stage in his career. Paul was a crafty defender but when engaged [which Bryant was] Bryant was simply better at this point in their respective careers.

Overall I give a slight edge to Bryant here, though it is difficult to separate Bryant's great play from what Gasol and Odom were able to do on Duncan. Holding Duncan down was the most important part of this series and Duncan struggled against the hungry and savvy Gasol in the post. Ultimately the difference in the series [LAL/SAS] was Bryant's ability to carry a mediocre offense [103.1 Rating] while the rest of the team prevented a poor offense from even eclipsing 100 ORtg [98.1 in the series].

Paul was also tremendous and the fact that the Hornets managed a 8.9 TOV% offensively is the sole reason the series went 7 games. Paul had a near 5.0 AST/TOV ratio [4.7] which allowed the Hornets to post a 107.2 Ortg [Compared to just 103.1 for the Lakers and Bryant/Gasol]. Think about that for a second, a Chris Paul team had a better offense than a team comprised of Prime [Peak] Bryant and Pau Gasol! While Tim Duncan struggled again in this series, and Tyson Chandler will do that to people, the perimeter players in Parker and especially Ginobili had tremendous series. All of the blame can't be on Paul but I do give him partial blame for the matter.

James and Kobe vs Celtics
Box-Score
Kobe: 25.7/4.7/5.0/2.7/0.2
James: 26.7/6.4/7.6/2.1/1.3

Advanced
Kobe: 50.2 TS%, 43.9 eFG%; Turnover Economy (22.6 AST%, 13.1 TOV%, 32.5 USG%); 98 Ortg/111 Drtg [-13]
James: 48.0 TS%, 43.2 eFG%; Turnover Economy (41.0 AST%, 16.0 TOV%, 37.8 USG%); 96 Ortg/98 Drtg [-2]

Once again, statistically these players were extremely close. Given that Bryant has an advantage in supporting cast it is eye-opening that the Offensive Ratings of the two teams [Cavs @ 102.3 and Lakers @ 103.9] are so close. James shouldered a larger load offensively and defensively while performing much better defensively. Bryant being torched and "tricked" into a one-on-one game [circa 2006] was devastating for the Lakers. Ultimately I give LeBron the edge here, but as I said earlier it is close.

All-in-all all 3 of these players were extremely close. Any order of 1-3 for the season is justifiable.

Claims like "Kobe Easily", LeBron was "in no way the best" or any other foolish statements have no place on this board; take that crap to the General Board.

Looks like the Country Mile is a Country Inch.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

70sFan wrote:So, despite the massive anti-bias for Kobe on this site, he wins the poll comfortably. What does it mean?

It means Kobe was the best player

I remember in the 2008 player of the year project some left Kobe off the ballot to skew the vote and not let him win

eminence wrote:It's also a flat out lie.

You can go look at the '08 RPOY voting thread.

Kobe was on 24 of 24 ballots.

In fact, the reverse happened with Silver Bullet leaving KG off their ballot in favor of Duncan/Pierce in the 4th/5th spots.

In 2010 when the voting was conducted it was basically the closest race we've seen for the top spot, with KG/Kobe/LeBron/CP3 dominating the top 4 of the voting (they received all top 4 votes but the Silver Bullet vote for Duncan). Duncan dominated the 5th spot, but we also saw votes for Dirk/Nash/Howard/Amar'e/Pierce.

Colbinii wrote:

An Unbiased Fan wrote:

70sFan wrote:So, despite the massive anti-bias for Kobe on this site, he wins the poll comfortably. What does it mean?

It means Kobe was the best player

I remember in the 2008 player of the year project some left Kobe off the ballot to skew the vote and not let him win

eminence wrote:It's also a flat out lie.

You can go look at the '08 RPOY voting thread.

Kobe was on 24 of 24 ballots.

In fact, the reverse happened with Silver Bullet leaving KG off their ballot in favor of Duncan/Pierce in the 4th/5th spots.

In 2010 when the voting was conducted it was basically the closest race we've seen for the top spot, with KG/Kobe/LeBron/CP3 dominating the top 4 of the voting (they received all top 4 votes but the Silver Bullet vote for Duncan). Duncan dominated the 5th spot, but we also saw votes for Dirk/Nash/Howard/Amar'e/Pierce.

HeartBreakKid wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

An Unbiased Fan wrote:It means Kobe was the best player

I remember in the 2008 player of the year project some left Kobe off the ballot to skew the vote and not let him win

eminence wrote:It's also a flat out lie.

You can go look at the '08 RPOY voting thread.

Kobe was on 24 of 24 ballots.

In fact, the reverse happened with Silver Bullet leaving KG off their ballot in favor of Duncan/Pierce in the 4th/5th spots.

In 2010 when the voting was conducted it was basically the closest race we've seen for the top spot, with KG/Kobe/LeBron/CP3 dominating the top 4 of the voting (they received all top 4 votes but the Silver Bullet vote for Duncan). Duncan dominated the 5th spot, but we also saw votes for Dirk/Nash/Howard/Amar'e/Pierce.

good times

ardee wrote:Kobe
CP3
LeBron
-gap-
KG

Kobe's lift was utterly ridiculous that year. He had 35 games of Bynum and 27 games of Pau, managed to lead that team to a 7.4 SRS and the 1 seed. Without him that's a 25 win team tops.

Then he goes and averages peak MJ numbers and murders three 50 win teams in a row to win the Western Conference.

Ranking someone like KG (whose team was already elite without him, 6.3 SRS in the games he missed) anywhere near him is quite frankly a joke and shows the unending bias of so many posters on this board who have hated Kobe for frankly decades at this point.

70sFan wrote:

ardee wrote:Kobe
CP3
LeBron
-gap-
KG

Kobe's lift was utterly ridiculous that year. He had 35 games of Bynum and 27 games of Pau, managed to lead that team to a 7.4 SRS and the 1 seed. Without him that's a 25 win team tops.

Then he goes and averages peak MJ numbers and murders three 50 win teams in a row to win the Western Conference.

Ranking someone like KG (whose team was already elite without him, 6.3 SRS in the games he missed) anywhere near him is quite frankly a joke and shows the unending bias of so many posters on this board who have hated Kobe for frankly decades at this point.

Seriously?

ardee wrote:

70sFan wrote:

ardee wrote:Kobe
CP3
LeBron
-gap-
KG

Kobe's lift was utterly ridiculous that year. He had 35 games of Bynum and 27 games of Pau, managed to lead that team to a 7.4 SRS and the 1 seed. Without him that's a 25 win team tops.

Then he goes and averages peak MJ numbers and murders three 50 win teams in a row to win the Western Conference.

Ranking someone like KG (whose team was already elite without him, 6.3 SRS in the games he missed) anywhere near him is quite frankly a joke and shows the unending bias of so many posters on this board who have hated Kobe for frankly decades at this point.

Seriously?

One guy took a team that would likely be negative SRS without him to a 7.4 SRS.

The other guy took a 6 SRS team without him to 9 SRS.

How is their impact comparable?

ardee wrote:Kobe's lift was utterly ridiculous that year. He had 35 games of Bynum and 27 games of Pau, managed to lead that team to a 7.4 SRS and the 1 seed. Without him that's a 25 win team tops.

ardee wrote:Kobe
CP3
LeBron
-gap-
KG

Kobe's lift was utterly ridiculous that year. He had 35 games of Bynum and 27 games of Pau, managed to lead that team to a 7.4 SRS and the 1 seed. Without him that's a 25 win team tops.

Then he goes and averages peak MJ numbers and murders three 50 win teams in a row to win the Western Conference.

Ranking someone like KG (whose team was already elite without him, 6.3 SRS in the games he missed) anywhere near him is quite frankly a joke and shows the unending bias of so many posters on this board who have hated Kobe for frankly decades at this point.

70sFan wrote:

ardee wrote:

70sFan wrote:Seriously?

One guy took a team that would likely be negative SRS without him to a 7.4 SRS.

The other guy took a 6 SRS team without him to 9 SRS.

How is their impact comparable?

How can you know they'd be negative?

Do you think that players analysis should end at looking at single season WOWY signals?

The Master wrote:Circumstantial WOWY analysis and playoffs' on/off are getting increasingly overrated on this board.

That being said, I do agree that Garnett may be overrated, especially his passing, by some, based on his Celtics' tenure (series against Cavs would need a further evaluation in that regard), but it's nonetheless very close race between these four in 2008.

ardee wrote:Kobe's lift was utterly ridiculous that year. He had 35 games of Bynum and 27 games of Pau, managed to lead that team to a 7.4 SRS and the 1 seed. Without him that's a 25 win team tops.

Lakers had great depth for 00s standards that year (at least for regular season), excluding low minutes guy, 11th player on a team in terms of BPM was -0.4 (Fisher), so basically neutral production-wise. Considering elite coaching (I guess that's the reason why these role players overperform) and having a great big man throughout majority the year (Bynum 13-10-2-2 on +4 BPM in 28 minutes and then Gasol on 19-8-4-2 numbers and +5 BPM then) - naah, that's not 25W team.

It could be arguable that it was Nash-esque effort by Kobe to make these role players play that well, but they were +2 net without him on a court in RS.