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In terms of pure court vision/awareness how many players have a case over Jason Kidd?

Obviously Jokic. After that, since '90-'91, it becomes slim pickins. Personally... I think these might be my top two since I started watching.

I'd defer to old heads who might include Bird and Magic.

scrabbarista wrote:Obviously Jokic. After that, since '90-'91, it becomes slim pickins. Personally... I think these might be my top two since I started watching.

I'd defer to old heads who might include Bird and Magic.

You don't see a single case for someone like Nash or Stockton to having better vision than Kidd?

I'd also throw in guys like Rubio, DWill, CP3, Haliburton and LeBron as players potentially having a case.

Colbinii wrote:

scrabbarista wrote:Obviously Jokic. After that, since '90-'91, it becomes slim pickins. Personally... I think these might be my top two since I started watching.

I'd defer to old heads who might include Bird and Magic.

You don't see a single case for someone like Nash or Stockton to having better vision than Kidd?

I'd also throw in guys like Rubio, DWill, CP3, Haliburton and LeBron as players potentially having a case.

The only one I could include with Jokic and Kidd is Teodosic.

Nash and a place holder for Haliburton round out the top five (who I've seen live). I won't get mad if someone includes them in the conversation. I think the other five you mention are below these five. If we go this far, Doncic easily belongs in the group. All of these are amazing.

EDIT: If you stretched the definition of "awareness" beyond just passing to all things basketball-related during a game, I could see CP3 with a case as the GoAT, and Stockton would be in the top tier. But, of course, this is a thread about awareness as it relates to passing.

Bron, CP3, Nash, Luka and Jokic since Kidd definitely.

Greater responsibility to create offence and manipulate defences

Stylistically there’s similarities between Bron and Kidd specifically in transition actually finding the cutter/lob.

The behind the back stuff (when it’s actually a stock standard pass) yes plenty of flair and panache but does nothing for me personally.

DCasey91 wrote:Bron, CP3, Nash, Luka and Jokic since Kidd definitely.

Greater responsibility to create offence and manipulate defences

Stylistically there’s similarities between Bron and Kidd specifically in transition actually finding the cutter/lob.

The behind the back stuff (when it’s actually a stock standard pass) yes plenty of flair and panache but does nothing for me personally.

Yes, this is not a conversation about flair or panache.

Colbinii wrote:

scrabbarista wrote:Obviously Jokic. After that, since '90-'91, it becomes slim pickins. Personally... I think these might be my top two since I started watching.

I'd defer to old heads who might include Bird and Magic.

You don't see a single case for someone like Nash or Stockton to having better vision than Kidd?

I'd also throw in guys like Rubio, DWill, CP3, Haliburton and LeBron as players potentially having a case.

How do you rank in terms of strictly passing vision

Rubio, DWill and CP3 ?

mdonnelly1989 wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

scrabbarista wrote:Obviously Jokic. After that, since '90-'91, it becomes slim pickins. Personally... I think these might be my top two since I started watching.

I'd defer to old heads who might include Bird and Magic.

You don't see a single case for someone like Nash or Stockton to having better vision than Kidd?

I'd also throw in guys like Rubio, DWill, CP3, Haliburton and LeBron as players potentially having a case.

How do you rank in terms of strictly passing vision

Rubio, DWill and CP3 ?

Rubio > CP3=DWIll in pure vision, but again it is very subjective.

I equate Rubio to Kidd in terms of vision. Both of them were special passers, far different than Rondo [also very good] but they didn't really have the "Rondo Assists". Rubio and Kidd both didn't put pressure with their scoring, which makes their passing so special. CP3 and Dwill utilized their scoring and midrange to open-up their passing.

• Magic
• Bird (though executing upon it is a different story)
• Nash
• Jokic
• James

Kidd is probably the smartest pure basketball player of our lifetimes. It gets lost because of his off-court stuff and his failings as a head coach, but in terms of seeing the court and understanding how to manipulate the other 9 players, I don't know that there is anyone ever better. Not he's not nearly as talented as Joker or Lebron or in some ways Nash, but in terms of seeing and knowing what to do? As good as there has ever been. Just an absolute in the moment basketball genius. On both ends.

We mostly limit vision to passing which is incomplete. Kidd used his vision in so many more ways.

I'm taking this to mean across all areas, not just passing vision. So things like play directing (both sides), rebound tracking, defensive awareness. Very similar to what folks might think of as BBIQ, minus decision making.

Kidd's a contender for sure. Others that I'd consider on first thought (it's awfully subjective, so willing to consider a fair #) - Draymond, LeBron, CP3, Manu, KG, Stockton, Bird, Russell.

Probably a couple earlier guys I left off due to not having seen often enough. Magic/Nash/Jokic all left off intentionally, I'm not that impressed by any of their vision if the ball isn't in their hands (Jokic probably the best of them in other areas).

stockton had better court vision than kidd

Just passing, Stockton certainly had better court vision than Kidd. Kidd may have been better in the open court but watch them both in a half court setting and you will see Stockton recognize and snap those clean passes far more often than Kidd. He did have a much better shot which defenders had to honor which does give him an advantage but it's also his changing speeds and angles where Kidd was more straight ahead . . . reminds me of Rubio v. Wall comp in terms of playmaking though Wall was the better shooter there. And of course, Stockton ran the PnR better.

I don't know if Kidd saw more on defense, Stock was sneaky and nasty, Kidd was physically bigger, stronger, and faster (if not necessarily quicker, they aren't the same thing), a better man defender, and Kidd was a monster rebounding guard which Stockton wasn't. But that's not vision, that's physical tools.

Playoff Rondo >>

There are guys like Scott Skiles who had great court vision but were not fast enough or big enough to be dominant.

jason. williams.

Hard to say what is court vision and what is years of playing with the same players and building an intuition of where players will be, or if there is a distinction between the two when people discuss it. Sets with 2nd, 3rd, 4th fallbacks in case x, y, z happens. You run these over the course of time, you know where everyone will be when you run into x, y, or z scenario.

penbeast0 wrote:Just passing, Stockton certainly had better court vision than Kidd. Kidd may have been better in the open court but watch them both in a half court setting and you will see Stockton recognize and snap those clean passes far more often than Kidd. H

I mean on the Mavs as an old Man there wasn't a quicker ball swinger than Kidd. Dirk draws double hits Kidd, ball instantly in the hands of the open shooter perfectly in the pocket.

No way Stockton was quicker than instant lol.