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I've been thinking hard about this question especially since it's a debate I'm having with friends irl, but who would you guys say was more skilled than Kobe doesn't mean they were better, just more skilled overall than him defense and offense included.

So far I've thought of Jordan, KD, Harden, but who else? I've been thinking of recent players like Brunson, Shai, etc. too, but dunno overall.

Point guards are probably the most "skilled" players. Steph Curry, Kyrie Irving, Big O, Chris Paul, Steve Nash all come to mind.

I think Magic was probably more skilled than Kobe as well.


Kobe has a lot of go-to moves but doesn't really measure up to PGs in handling, shooting, and passing.


For bigs I'd have to think about it, but Jokic is certainly someone I think is more skilled than Kobe Bryant. Garnett is an interesting one too.

Commonly mentioned but Irving is one of the most skilled players I've ever seen, maybe the most skilled.

He drives into traffic, in the most precarious situations using very high risk ball handling, but still is somehow one of the least turnover prone guards in the league. Have never seen someone with higher command of a basketball than Irving.

Andre Miller.

Kobe also has an advantage in that his athleticism was so great that he didn't need to be as skilled as a lesser player to get off the same shot or cover the same ground. So he may be a less skilled shotmaker than someone like Corliss Williamson or Marcus Fizer but still able to get off and make more difficult shots just because his body control is better.

There’s that best all around player ever guy….Bird.

Harden and Durant aren't more skilled than Kobe imo.

Other than MJ who has such a direct comparison there aren't many players I'd call clearly more skilled than Kobe, most are going to have different strengths and weaknesses, I think Curry, CP and Nash would be my other picks for most skilled players ever but they aren't big enough to have Kobe midpost game. I don't know if Bird and Magic are more skilled or if they're just smarter.

Nash, Penny, Bird, Barkley, Olajuwon, McGrady

I don't know what "skilled" means, but there were at least 20 guys better at basketball than him. More if we go by peak only.

Dr Positivity wrote:Harden and Durant aren't more skilled than Kobe imo.

Other than MJ who has such a direct comparison there aren't many players I'd call clearly more skilled than Kobe, most are going to have different strengths and weaknesses, I think Curry, CP and Nash would be my other picks for most skilled players ever but they aren't big enough to have Kobe midpost game. I don't know if Bird and Magic are more skilled or if they're just smarter.

Dantley's about the same size and has a clearly superior midpost game; of course Dantley may be the GOAT post player for non-bigs. Kobe has him on defense and outside shooting as well as athleticism of course.

Jordan
Bird
Magic
Luka
Jokic

I've not even trying to be euphemistic or cryptic when I say I have absolutely no idea what "skilled" means anymore . Sports fans will invent two discrete categories in which there are "athletic abilities" and then "skill abilities", and then say that the player that has more of the latter is more skilled.

A layup for example is predetermined as an athletic ability, so Lebron using his 44 inch vertical and a 7'0 wingspan to rise up over defenders and be the best layup-er ever "doesn't take skill".

But a jumpshot is often predetermined as a skill ability, so Michael Jordan using his 48 inch vertical and near 7'0 wingspan to rise up over defenders and be the best midrange shooter ever "takes GOAT level skill".

Ditto with defence, which NBA fans have somehow decided is "50% athleticism and 50% effort", which is insane, as that implies that the only difference between Westbrook being Tony Allen or Deandre Jordan being Bill Russell is effort.

This is all silly obviously because all a "skill" is, is a way of solving a problem through physical means, i.e, via athleticism. They're not magical moves that use mana and spirit energy lol. If skills didn't require athleticism then players wouldn't decline with age. Acting like having GOAT level speed or strength disqualifies you from being skilled but having GOAT level reflexes, or stamina or hand eye coordination doesn't, and is some sort of abstract trait that's seperate from physicality and athleticism makes no sense.

If a "skilled" player is in fact just a player who's still very successful despite having minimal run jump athleticism (which seems like a pretty arbitrary distinction to make), then I still don't think Kobe is very high up on that strangly arbitrary list.

There was a strange historically revisionist narrative that became prominent immediately after Kobe retired that portrayed him as an underdog? As if he wasn't 6'5 with a 6'10 wingspan, 220lbs+ with a near 40 inch vertical. He was immensely talented and is like the 3rd most athletic player at his position ever lol, he was a lottery pick out of highschool for a reason. I literally read a comment this week that said he succeeded in his career "through pure skill alone", which is nonsense.

What makes Kobe one of the most skilled players ever?
He's not a more skilled passed than MJ, Harden, Ginobili, Wade, Tmac, let alone people like Nash, Kidd, CP3, Stockton, etc. He had good defensive footwork if I remember correctly but his defensive IQ could be lacking. He was a pretty good rebounder I guess, but I don't think that moves the needle or is why anyone calls him skilled.

His ball handling is elite but outside of that he only skill he has that's at an all time level is his scoring and I don't see how he's anymore skilled than Michael Jordan, Kyrie Irving, Stephen Curry, James Harden, etc. For those who'll say that MJ had fast twitch athletic advantages over Kobe, just remember that MJ's mid range shooting seasons as a Wizard were better than any of Kobe's mid range shooting seasons in any year of his career.

Kobe was an excellent post scorer for a guard, but he was a very strong 6'6 guard so that skill is a function of his measurables (which is fine for me but would seemingly be disqualified as a "pure skill" for a lot of people as someone like Steph wouldn't be able to replicate it even if he wanted to).

However Kobe's shot IQ was so ass that it takes his skill down a notch imo. Kobe would pump fake out of a wide open shot into a contested one, or shoot with his legs crossed for no damn reason, amongst other odd things. Shot selection is a skill.

But yeah, what exactly makes Kobe this all time "pure skill" individual that even warrants him constantly being in these GOAT skill discussions? His post game and his handles?

Jordan
Luka
Kyrie
Jokic

McBubbles wrote:But yeah, what exactly makes Kobe this all time "pure skill" individual that even warrants him constantly being in these GOAT skill discussions? His post game and his handles?

With most people, it's all the different stuff he did/tried, regardless of whether or not it was a good idea or at the expense of developing a few pet moves more in line with how Jordan played (very much the same reason people often overrate Melo). Kobe WAS an extremely adept isolation scorer. His handles were tight, his footwork was good, and while his shot selection was intermittently abominable, he was quite capable, particularly in the congested environment of the early 2000s paint.

A more ardent Bryant fan somewhere will perhaps know of what I speak, but there are isolation scoring numbers from his heyday floating around and I recall him ranking quite highly relative to his peers.

McBubbles wrote:But yeah, what exactly makes Kobe this all time "pure skill" individual that even warrants him constantly being in these GOAT skill discussions? His post game and his handles?

let's say Kobe was one of the most aesthetically pleasing player to watch. Holding impressive body configurations while trying a desperate shot over 4 people it's what impresses some people, especially those who dislike numbers. Sometimes it helped him, some other times it was craftiness for its own sake. The longest, most twisted path to the goal. One positive thing one could say about Kobe's skillfulness is: variety and great assortment of moves.
Adding to what you said: take Kawhi for example, he's a terminator who always picks his best spots, boringly rises up and nobody can't do anything about. Is he less skillfull?

Tangentially related to the last thing I said, slashers get clowned on for traveling occasionally as it being evidence of their lack of footwork and skill. Typically see people say this in regards to Giannis.

What's funny though is that catch and shoot jump shooters travel constantly. In an attempt to stop on a dime without detonating their ACL's they'll catch the ball and then take 2 or 3 baby steps after the catch, and then shoot. I have literally never seen anyone make a lowlight the type of traveling violation I've just described because it's already been decided that shooters are skilled and so don't travel unlike slashers like Giannis lol.

McBubbles wrote:Tangentially related to the last thing I said, slashers get clowned on for traveling occasionally as it being evidence of their lack of footwork and skill. Typically see people say this in regards to Giannis.

What's funny though is that catch and shoot jump shooters travel constantly. In an attempt to stop on a dime without detonating their ACL's they'll catch the ball and then take 2 or 3 baby steps after the catch, and then shoot. I have literally never seen anyone make a lowlight the type of traveling violation I've just described because it's already been decided that shooters are skilled and so don't travel unlike slashers like Giannis lol.

I feel like one extra big step and 2 baby steps were added to what was called as traveling 10-15 years ago(which already often gave an extra step compared to the 80's and before).

How are you defining skill?

Skill is defined differently but if Kobe really was a GOAT skilled player, and had elite level athleticism + team accolades then why isn't he considered a GOAT candidate? I think the idea of skill aligning with how good someone is gets overblown. Kyrie is a good example at times too.

I'd also assume it's because most have skilled as a smaller part of what makes a player elite. The casual fans generally leads into the aethetics/skills from my experience.

If skill is defined as foootwork and body control then sure but then you have a lot more.

Is ball handling apart of it? Kobe is miles behind.
Is the ability to pass apart of it? Making reads and throwing the ball as timely and accurately as possible is definitely a skill. Kobe is average at best.

Decision making a skill? I believe so but Depends on what you use however again not elite compared to the GOATs.

To me there are atleast 10 players more skilled but again it depends how you define it.

Yeah it really depends on what’s your definition of “skill” is. Based on mine I’d say Kobe is one of the top 5-10 most skilled ever. Phil Jackson said he was more skilled than Michael Jordan. According to some RealGM posters here he is not in the top 20 most skilled ever.