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GOAT Skills: Screen Setting

Posted: Thu Feb 1, 2024 6:39 pm
by The Explorer
Continuation of the GOAT skills series. Next up is screen setting.

Who would you say is the GOAT screen setter? As an aside, I put in a vote for Stockton among guards, though this thread is for overall which will be bigs.

GOAT Skills Series:
GOAT Passing
GOAT Post Defense
GOAT Offensive Rebounding
GOAT Footwork

Re: GOAT Skills: Screen Setting

Posted: Thu Feb 1, 2024 7:02 pm
by AEnigma
Wes Unseld, Ben Wallace, Andrew Bogut, Rudy Gobert, and Steven Adams all immediately come to mind for centres. There is really no shortage though, because being strong takes you far. Joakim Noah, Marc Gasol… Marcin Gortat, Omer Asik, Kendrick Perkins, Glen Davis, Kevon Looney, Jason Collins, and Nick Collison for more roleplayer names… Horford was always effective…

For power forwards: Duncan, Garnett, Oakley, Malone, Mahorn, Rodman, Draymond, Aldridge, Amir Johnson, David West, Taj Gibson…

Stockton is a good choice among small players. Lowry is up there. Paul and Jrue too — again, strength is essential. Steph was a reliable one for a few years; not sure how much he still is.

Unseld deserves the title by reputation, although I would probably push someone like Adams for the “best” title. Tough to not take Unseld as the “greatest” though when he stands out even as a contemporary of Reed, Wilt, Thurmond, Beaty, etc. And there is something to universality: a lot of this skews modern as movement shooting has been increasingly emphasised, but Unseld stands out a decade before you start to see some of those 1980s power forwards really build a reputation for it (not saying there were no other noteworthy screen-setters… but Unseld is the only one whose reputation is immortal).

Re: GOAT Skills: Screen Setting

Posted: Thu Feb 1, 2024 7:42 pm
by penbeast0
Helps that Wes was a widebody, but yeah, he was a nasty screen setter. And then they brought him in to teach Jeff Ruland and Rick Mahorn how to do it.

Not sure I would take a modern player because the refs have become so lenient about moving screens.

Re: GOAT Skills: Screen Setting

Posted: Thu Feb 1, 2024 8:10 pm
by AEnigma
The lenience contributes to some of the volume and frequency, but I would still prefer that volume and frequency barring a confident assessment of what would make older figures better. Lakers Wilt had the tools at least, but not sure how many others historically can compete. If you have a designed play for an action coming off a screen, and the opponent knows you want to set a screen, are you 100% choosing Unseld for that role over anybody?

Again, sheer legacy goes to Unseld. Question answered if that is all we want. But in actual ability, I would probably prefer others.

Re: GOAT Skills: Screen Setting

Posted: Thu Feb 1, 2024 9:02 pm
by Owly
As ever value of a skill is contextual in terms of external factors (team contexts etc) and player internal factors (does your rim-running/lob threat or threat to "pop" or "fade" for a J make the value from your screens more dangerous).

Difference leverages on the value of quantity, quality and ... menace?/reducer?/intimidation? factor plus different era considerations (including differing rules and interpretations) make it pretty tough to answer with any confidence.

Re: GOAT Skills: Screen Setting

Posted: Thu Feb 1, 2024 9:26 pm
by Dr Positivity
I think KG mastered towing the line of moving screens.

Re: GOAT Skills: Screen Setting

Posted: Thu Feb 1, 2024 9:29 pm
by clearlynotjesse
Dirk screens were some of the most useful ever. He wasn't blowing guys up but they were effective.

Re: GOAT Skills: Screen Setting

Posted: Fri Feb 2, 2024 3:29 am
by trex_8063
Wes Unseld seems like the obvious answer: supposedly his screens were like running into a brick wall (and they do look solid from the footage I've seen).

Rudy Gobert was the next name that came to mind. I've always admired not only his technique, but his willingness to set and reset, and reset, and reset [as needed] multiple screens on the same possession. I recall seeing a stat that he set more screens than any other player for multiple years running.

There are a number of guys worth mentioning after that:
Kevin Garnett
David Robinson
Karl Malone
Steven Adams sets a nice screen
Amar'e Stoudemire perhaps???
Dirk Nowitzki set effective ones (I might be factoring in what guys do AFTER the screen here)

Off-the-cuff non-standard answer: Jusuf Nurkic sets a nice pick from what I've seen. EDIT: So does Nikola Jokic, actually.

Re: GOAT Skills: Screen Setting

Posted: Fri Feb 2, 2024 3:55 am
by rk2023
Draymond and one of Scott Foster / Tony Brothers are the best screeners you could have while running double drag, I’d take them over anybody

Re: GOAT Skills: Screen Setting

Posted: Fri Feb 2, 2024 10:00 pm
by Texas Chuck
clearlynotjesse wrote:Dirk screens were some of the most useful ever. He wasn't blowing guys up but they were effective.


Yeah a Dirk screen is probably the most effective of all-time and I'm assuming the OP is trying to get at what screen helps the offense the most, not who most resembles a brick wall. Because a Dirk screen set more guards free than anyone ever. Because teams didn't want to switch it so the guard gets picked off and now Barea is at the rim, or Terry is shooting wide open 18 footers or Nash is playing 4 on 3.

Can't imagine there is a coach who would rather run PNR with Adams or Gobert instead.

Re: GOAT Skills: Screen Setting

Posted: Fri Feb 2, 2024 10:19 pm
by DCasey91
Has to be any of the GSW big/wing players considering nowadays it is directly sourced

To the letter of the law it is illegal but the effect was that great.

Re: GOAT Skills: Screen Setting

Posted: Fri Feb 2, 2024 10:21 pm
by AEnigma
That is an interesting and worthwhile distinction. If you are measuring nothing but the screen itself, then Dirk is easy to exclude (not that his were bad). If measuring the effect of the screening action — which you are correct should matter more to how an offence runs — then he has an easy case for #1.

Re: GOAT Skills: Screen Setting

Posted: Fri Feb 2, 2024 11:27 pm
by penbeast0
Not sure taking into account the shooting ability of the screener as a factor in how effective the screen is fits what the OP has in mind. Now you are getting into best PNR player, rather than who sets the best screens. On the other hand, I think moving screens should be taken into account as effective if the refs are letting teams get away with them. Taking advantage of the rules as they exist is part of using a skill just like all the illegal carries that almost every ballhandler today uses are an accepted part of having great handles in the modern NBA.

Re: GOAT Skills: Screen Setting

Posted: Sat Feb 3, 2024 10:00 pm
by DraymondGold
I found an old thread on screening in another forum (https://www.apbr.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4803). There's a few interesting posts by fpliii, who did a google search and gathered data just based on the number of mentions. They put an asterisk * next to players who appeared frequently mentioned or in particularly high regard, with two asterisks ** next to Wes Unseld who got the most mentions as the GOAT screen setter.

Here's the list, as of 2015:
Spoiler:
Screen Setters

A.C. Green
Al Horford
Alonzo Mourning*
Alvan Adams
Alvin Robertson
Amar'e Stoudemire
Amir Johnson*
Anderson Varejao
Andrei Kirilenko
Andrew Bogut
Andrew Lang
Antoine Walker
Antonio Davis
Antonio McDyess
Artis Gilmore*
Arvydas Sabonis
Ben Wallace*
Bill Bridges
Bill Cartwright
Bill Laimbeer*
Bill Russell*
Bill Walton*
Billy Knight
Bismack Biyombo
Bob Lanier
Bobby Jones
Bob Rule
Boris Diaw
Brad Daugherty*
Brad Miller
Buck Williams
Byron Beck
Campy Russell
Carmelo Anthony
Charles Barkley
Charles Oakley*
Chris Andersen
Chris Bosh
Chris Gatling
Chris Kaman
Chuck Hayes
Chris Mullin
Chuck Share
Clifford Robinson
Clyde Lovellette
Cody Zeller
Connie Hawkins
Dale Davis
Dan Majerle
Darrall Imhoff
Dave Cowens*
Dave DeBusschere
Dave Piontek
David Robinson
David West
DeAndre Jordan*
Dennis Rodman
Dick Van Arsdale
Dikembe Mutombo
Dirk Nowitzki
Dolph Schayes
Dwight Howard
Earl Lloyd
Expe Udoh
Elton Brand
Elvin Hayes
Erick Dampier
Ernie Grunfeld
George McGinnis
George Mikan
Gerald Wallace
Greg Ostertag
Hakeem Olajuwon
Henry Finkel
Horace Grant
Jack Sikma
James Donaldson
Jason Collins*
Jason Kidd
Jayson Williams
Jeff Ruland
Jermaine O'Neal
Jerry Lucas*
Jerry Sloan
Jim McMillian
Joakim Noah*
Joel Anthony
John Brisker
John Havlicek
John Starks
John Stockton
Johnny Green
Julius Erving
Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Karl Malone*
Kendrick Perkins*
Kenyon Martin
Kermit Washington
Kevin Garnett*
Kevin Love
Kevin McHale
Kosta Koufos
Kurt Rambis
Kurt Thomas
Kyle Korver
LaMarcus Aldridge
Larry Bird
Larry Johnson
Larry Nance
LeBron James
Lonnie Shelton
Luke Jackson
Magic Johnson
Marcin Gortat*
Mark Eaton
Marc Gasol*
Marcus Camby
Maurice Lucas*
Maurice Stokes
Mehmet Okur
Mel Daniels
Metta World Peace
Michael Jordan
Mikki Moore
Moses Malone
Nate Thurmond*
Nick Collison
Nikola Pekovic
Omer Asik
Oscar Robertson
Otis Thorpe
Otto Porter
Patrick Ewing
Pau Gasol
Paul George
Paul Pierce
Paul Silas
Ralph Sampson
Rasheed Wallace
Rasho Nesterovic
Ray Felix
Red Kerr
Red Rocha
Reggie Evans
Rick Mahorn*
Rik Smits
Robert Parish
Robin Lopez*
Ronny Turiaf
Roy Hibbert
Ryan Hollins
Scottie Pippen
Shane Battier
Shaquille O'Neal*
Shawn Bradley
Shawn Marion
Sidney Wicks
Spencer Hawes
Spencer Haywood
Steve Nash
Steven Adams
Swede Halbrook
Sweetwater Clifton
Swen Nater
Taj Gibson
Terry Cummings
Tiago Splitter
Tim Duncan*
Timofey Mozgov
Tom Boerwinkle
Tom Gola
Tom Heinsohn
Tom Sanders
Truck Robinson
Tyler Hansbrough
Tyler Zeller
Tyson Chandler
Vern Mikkelsen*
Vlade Divac
Warren Jabali
Walt Bellamy
Walter Dukes
Wayne Embry*
Wendell Ladner
Wes Unseld**
Willie Naulls
Willie Wise
Willis Reed*
Wilt Chamberlain*
Yao Ming
Zach Randolph
Zelmo Beaty
Zydrunas Ilgauskas
. And here's the list of the more frequently mentioned screeners:
Spoiler:
Better Screen Setters

Alonzo Mourning*
Amir Johnson*
Artis Gilmore*
Ben Wallace*
Bill Laimbeer*
Bill Russell*
Bill Walton*
Brad Daugherty*
Charles Oakley*
Dave Cowens*
DeAndre Jordan*
Jason Collins*
Jerry Lucas*
Joakim Noah*
Karl Malone*
Kendrick Perkins*
Kevin Garnett*
Marcin Gortat*
Marc Gasol*
Maurice Lucas*
Nate Thurmond*
Rick Mahorn*
Robin Lopez*
Shaquille O'Neal*
Tim Duncan*
Vern Mikkelsen*
Wayne Embry*
Wes Unseld**
Willis Reed*
Wilt Chamberlain*
This definitely isn't a rigorous/scientific list, but it's interesting to see who gets more crowd support!