RealGM 2023 Top 100 Project - #70 (Vince Carter)

[Doctor MJ]

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. Nomination vote now works the same way.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):

Spoiler:

AEnigma
Ambrose
ceilng raiser
ceoofkobefans
Clyde Frazier
Colbinii
cupcakesnake
Doctor MJ
Dooley
DQuinn1575
Dr Positivity
DraymondGold
Dutchball97
f4p
falcolombardi
Fundamentals21
Gibson22
HeartBreakKid
homecourtloss
iggymcfrack
LA Bird
JimmyFromNz
Joao Saraiva
lessthanjake
Lou Fan
Moonbeam
Narigo
OhayoKD
OldSchoolNoBull
penbeast0
Rishkar
rk2023
Samurai
ShaqAttac
Taj FTW
Tim Lehrbach
trelos6
trex_8063
ty 4191
WintaSoldier1
ZeppelinPage

Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Vince Carter


Paul George


Cliff Hagan


Bobby Jones


Wes Unseld


As requested, here's the current list so far along with the historical spreadsheet of previous projects:

Current List
Historical Spreadsheet

[HeartBreakKid]

My vote is for Vince Carter - All around very good player. Scoring is not typical MVP level but was reasonably well rounded outside of scoring unlike some other famous players (Wilkins, Dantley, Anthony etc). Very ideal 2nd option type of guy.

My alternate vote is for Wes Unseld - I'm very high on him, but it is hard to find tangible data to justify it. Aesthetics and optics might not look good, but he seems to do the things that just make you an impactful player. I think his passing and screen setting has been romanticized, but he still seems like an excellent defensive piece.


The others



Hagan - I've changed my mind on Hagan. There isn't enough of a sample size to justify his playoff dominance I think.

Jones - I'm not taking a roleplayer here unless he's a high level DPOY type of guy, which I'm not sure if Jones was.

George - Have him in my top 100 but more impressed with his defense as a two way player. My gut feeling is that he's not at the level of Unsed/Jones on defense, and there is diminishing returns with his offense. I think just looking at their stats he does come out looking better than all the nominees except Carter though.



My nomination is for Rasheed Wallace - I would take him over Scottie Pippen. His impact is felt very highly whereever he goes it seems, even when he was past his prime. Maybe not a legitimate 3 point range guy, but a guy who can take bigs out the paint. Has good go-to moves and can isolate. Will move the ball around. Just an ideal "jack of all trades" type of player for his position with an emphasis on great defense.

My alternate nomination is for Elton Brand - I doubt this will get any traction or he'll make the top 100, but he's pretty damn good. I went back and watched a few of his games and his shot making was much better than I remember. He is seen as a peak guy but like T-Mac he has like 8 seasons of being good. I think he was overlooked by the media and it hurt him a lot in the long run.

[AEnigma]

VOTE: Vince Carter
Alternate: Wes Unseld
NOMINATE: Rasheed Wallace
AltNom: Damian Lillard
With Hayes inducted, I am open to Unseld. Had a nice (albeit not MVP-level) start to his career, and then fell off to more of a general all-star level. One title (Finals MVP was questionable but fine) and three more appearances. Strong leader and culture builder. I have never been too impressed with him by my eye-test, but he had the second longest prime of any player here and the most success while doing so across two distinct roster iterations.

Carter is distinct enough that I have no strong opinions on the order between him and Unseld. For the moment, it appears as though Carter has more support, and Unseld will pick up at least one additional vote once Carter is inducted. Carter’s team effect is more clearly established, but he was a worse leader and only had a fleeting moment of relevance.

Keeping an eye toward who I want included in the top 75, both Rasheed and Lillard meet the mark. Rasheed was the best player on back-to-back semifinalists before winning an ensemble title with the Pistons, and he was a highly impactful player for roughly a decade. Lillard has less playoff success, and I agree with LA Bird that he seems to lose effectiveness in a concerning way (although I am comparatively less critical of how he performed in 2019/20). However, the absolute best postseason players were rightly rewarded long ago, and when some of the other options I am considering include Allen Iverson, Bob Cousy, Shawn Marion, Larry Nance, Al Horford, etc., then Lillard is not losing points comparatively. You never want to see the postseason reduce an all-NBA-level player to a “mere” all-star-level player, but the remaining candidates who did have prolonged stretches of maintaining play in the postseason (e.g. Sam Jones or 1987-92 Terry Porter) were more about maintaining their base level all-star level of play anyway. Is Terry Porter winning any series that Lillard or Iverson lost? I say no, and that is ultimately what matters.

[Dr Positivity]

Vote Wes Unseld

Alt: George

Nominate: Lillard

Alt: Sam Jones

I believe in Unseld's defense due to the mobility/strength combo and screen, passing and rebounding seems to add up to a lot of impact.

I'm not crazy about Carter at this spot. He never had a Tmac type peak and his prime is 00-07 with his last few years in Toronto being only ok. Not sure how much better his prime was than like Blake. I think there is some other one way offensive perimeter players who can be put in first like Lillard, Dantley, Dominique (solid longevity), etc.

[penbeast0]

Vote: Bobby Jones. More than a decade of straight 1st team All-Defense votes combined with high efficiency, though not high volume scoring, and good playmaking. Not a great rebounder for his position but could play 2-5 at either end. Probably the greatest glue guy in NBA history and in his time where he was the best player on his team (75 and 76 for example), his team was the best in the league both years though they came up short in the playoffs. The most 1st team All-Defense awards, best player on two Nugget teams that had the best record in the NBA (though both came up short in the playoffs), great efficiency without being just an inside scorer, excellent passer, decent offensive rebounder, defensively good at blocking out rather than getting the board, good shot blocker for a forward, good steals, could play up to the 5 or down to the 2, limited minutes because of a physical condition but probably the greatest glue guy in the history of the NBA.

Stronger defensive impact than any of the nominated players, most efficient scorer along with Billups, one of the better playmakers for his position above everyone here except maybe Billups, he was the best player on the 75 Nuggets who had the best record in the league and made a big impact everywhere he went. The only real issue is his limited minutes and I think his impact is strong enough to overcome that.

Alt vote: Wes Unseld

Far from sold on this but he's a homer choice as the leader of the team I grew up with, the 60s/70s Bullets.

I just don't see either Vince or Tmac as that impactful to winning. Big stats guys and I loved VInce being one of the rare nerds to play in the NBA at his time but someone has to convince me they have great impact on top end winning like Jones has. Tmac was such a strange duck, he was incredibly talented but his coaches have called him out for poor practice habits and he never seemed to mesh well with Yao. In Orlando when Grant Hill went down and in Houston whenever Yao would go down though, it seemed like he would slip into a nearby phone booth and play like Superman for a stretch. Really not sure what to make of him. Not sure on Paul George, he seems a reach this early. Hasn't played 57 games since 1919 and had some injury limitations even before that, never was really one of the league's best at anything but very versatile, hasn't got the winning resume either.

Nomination: Adrian Dantley Easily the greatest scorer left. Amazing combination of volume and efficiency.

One of only 5 players in NBA history to have a season over .400 TS Add, something neither LeBron James or Micheal Jordan ever accomplished! Of the top 11 guys in this stat, everyone else is in except for Alex Groza whose career was ended quickly over college point shaving scandals in the 50s. And it wasn't isolated, he was consistently among the league leaders in both scoring and efficiency for his whole career.

His history with coaches is mixed. Frank Layton in Utah ripped him publicly as a selfish player though he later tried to walk it back a few times. On the other hand, Chuck Daly praised his professionalism, work ethic, and even his defense. But basically he is a serious candidate as one of the greatest wing scorers to ever play and everyone close to him in volume and efficiency is in.

Code: Select all

TS ADD LEADERS (single season) -- thanks to Owly for posting this

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar 460.4
Steph Curry 454.7
Charles Barkley 433.5
Wilt Chamberlain 430.3
Adrian Dantley 404.8

Kevin Durant 394.9
Oscar Robertson 392.5
Jerry West 374.3
George Mikan 365.5
Karl Malone 362.8

+ Alex Groza '50. 377.4

Alternative nomination: Sam Jones Was thinking Lillard here but his playoff performances are not impressive while Sam Jones was the main scoring threat on the NBA's greatest dynasty and notable for his clutch scoring.

[Samurai]

Repeating my vote from previous round:

Vote for #70: Bobby Jones. Yes I have reservations about his lack of longevity and durability. But I'm pretty sure that I would take Jones and his reduced minutes over Draymond if I were drafting a team, so seeing Green get selected convinced me to consider him. Gotta admit that there is bias here since Jones is one of my favorite players of all time. Despite averaging less than 30 minutes/game during his NBA career, he still has ten All Defensive First Team awards and one Second Team selection (in his second to last season averaging only 20 minutes/game). He was nicknamed The Secretary of Defense for good reason. He didn't shoot much but he was highly efficient, leading the league in FG% three times and finishing in the top 20 in TS% nine times. But as good as he was at playing basketball, how he conducted himself may have been even more admirable. He was always a gentleman with honor; he didn't drink, smoke or use profanity, always raised his hand when called for a foul - even telling a ref who mistakenly called a foul on a teammate that he was the one who actually committed the foul, even though that was his fifth foul! When teammates tried to show him ways to "cheat" by grabbing an opponent's jersey or committing a foul when the ref wasn't looking, he adamantly refused to do so. He would reply "if I have to play defense by holding on, that's when I quit." Teammate Dr J described Jones as "a player who's totally selfless, who runs like a deer, jumps like a gazelle, plays with his head and heart each night, and then walks away from the court as if nothing happened." And former teammate Charles Barkley said "if everyone in the world was like Bobby Jones, the world wouldn't have any problems."

Alternate vote: Wes Unseld. A favorite of mine from my childhood days (yup, I couldn't shoot either!). GOAT-level at grabbing the defensive rebound and immediately starting the break with a two-hand overhead outlet pass. Led the league in rebounds in 75 and finished in the top ten 7 times. Named both MVP and Rookie of the Year in 69. Finals MVP in 78. He wasn't a great shooter and thus didn't shoot a lot, but he was efficient with the shots he took (led the league in EFG% once and was in the top 20 in TS% 4 times). Was also an excellent screen setter.

Nomination: Sam Jones. Ten rings but some will take that with a grain of salt for being Russell's teammate. Three-time All NBA Second Team (cursed by playing guard at the same time that Oscar and West were in their primes) and had three top ten finishes in MVP voting. Seven top twenty finishes in both points/game and TS% indicates that he was not only a scoring threat but an efficient shooter as well. I don't have a good feel on how good he was on defense; he had 9 top twenty finishes in DWS but Russell was obviously the primary driver of the team's excellent defense and KC Jones typically drew the assignment of defending the opposing team's primary backcourt scorer. One of the greatest bank shot artists of all-time; he was banking in shots before Tim Duncan was even born.

Alternate nomination: Adrian Dantley. I acknowledge that the 6-time all star can be a polarizing player. But in his prime he was an elite scorer, leading the league twice and finished in the top ten in ppg 5 times. Preferred higher percentage shots closer to the rim rather than hoisting 30-footers, finishing in the top 15 in TS% for a dozen consecutive years. He was also a magnet at drawing fouls, finishing in the top ten in FT attempts 10 times, leading the league twice.

[penbeast0]

You and me against the world Samurai.

[trelos6]

Vote: Vince Carter



The cousins are close, coming in at #63 and #66 in my CORP. Ultimately, with this project, I’m giving peak a bit more weight. Which gave McGrady a very narrow edge over Vince. Since T-Mac got in, now it’s time for Vince.

Alt: Paul George

Looking at the new RAPM that’s dropped, PG was +3.4 on offense and -4.6 on D. That’s a +8 overall, in the same tier as KG, Curry and Duncan. I think defensively, he’s one of the top 5 or so players in the last 15-20 years. Super versatile player, I think he’d fit on any team with his shooting, ball handling and great D.

Nomination: Rasheed Wallace

Amazing ceiling raiser. I recently heard, teams play is often based off the limitations of their 4. Can they spread the floor? Can they facilitate? Can they play high level D? I think Sheed lets you play any way you like. Quite versatile, not many weaknesses, and played hard.


Alt. nomination: Damian Lillard

Tremendous offensive player, especially once he extended his range ~2019. Prob won’t see him get any more all nba level seasons, but I expect a few more all star level seasons. I realistically don’t see how he can get into the top 60 in future projects. His O RAPM was wild at +7.3.

[iggymcfrack]

Vote: Vince Carter
Not only is he the highest remaining candidate by VORP (27th all-time), he's also the highest remaining player in age adjusted career RAPM (15th) ahead of Tatum and Embiid who have much worse longevity. He probably should have gone much higher honestly.

Alternate: Paul George
7th in raw career RAPM and 21st in the adjusted version. 2-way monster who's on his 12th season as an impact player and never missed a single playoff game until last season.

Nominate: Rasheed Wallace
Best career RAPM numbers left on the board, doing it across several different team contexts in an impressive 36,000 minutes. Key piece of a championship team.

[iggymcfrack]

Really agonized over the nomination here. This was a tough one. Considered Sheed, Lowry, and Lillard among modern players. All 3 have similar impact signals. Downgraded Dame a bit for longevity/durability. Lowry gets a bonus for his on/off going way up in the playoffs, but with a lack of similar box score improvement, it's hard to know how much credit to give it. Ultimately, Sheed had the best RAPM numbers of the bunch and the most minutes and I couldn't find a good enough reason to take anyone else over him.

Of the old guys, the only one who played comparable minutes to the modern stars was Dantley and with him having lesser numbers than Dame with questionable impact signals, I can't really consider him while Lillard was on the board. I also looked at Sam Jones, Marques Johnson, Billy Cunningham, and Sidney Moncrief. I do give Jones some credit for having the most rings other than Russell, but his numbers looked a little too pedestrian and he only has 24K minutes. Cunningham and Johnson both had elite WOWYR, but again low minutes and Cunningham really only put up elite numbers in the early ABA which is hard to trust. And Moncrief has the incredible reputation and some good numbers, but again just 23K minutes. For now, I feel like the modern guys have the better cases although I'm open to data that shows something different.

[penbeast0]

Really agonized over the nomination here. This was a tough one. Considered Sheed, Lowry, and Lillard among modern players. All 3 have similar impact signals. Downgraded Dame a bit for longevity/durability. Lowry gets a bonus for his on/off going way up in the playoffs, but with a lack of similar box score improvement, it's hard to know how much credit to give it. Ultimately, Sheed had the best RAPM numbers of the bunch and the most minutes and I couldn't find a good enough reason to take anyone else over him.

Of the old guys, the only one who played comparable minutes to the modern stars was Dantley and with him having lesser numbers than Dame with questionable impact signals, I can't really consider him while Lillard was on the board. I also looked at Sam Jones, Marques Johnson, Billy Cunningham, and Sidney Moncrief. I do give Jones some credit for having the most rings other than Russell, but his numbers looked a little too pedestrian and he only has 24K minutes. Cunningham and Johnson both had elite WOWYR, but again low minutes and Cunningham really only put up elite numbers in the early ABA which is hard to trust. And Moncrief has the incredible reputation and some good numbers, but again just 23K minutes. For now, I feel like the modern guys have the better cases although I'm open to data that shows something different.

How much of that minute difference is the old NBA rule that you couldn't play until your college class graduated? Most of these players lose 3 years off the beginning of their career compared to the modern 1 and done players. Also, Sam Jones didn't have high per game minute totals, Marques and Sidney had short primes (due to substance issues and injury issues respectively). Cunningham did play large minutes through his prime but was done by age 31 or 32.

[iggymcfrack]

Really agonized over the nomination here. This was a tough one. Considered Sheed, Lowry, and Lillard among modern players. All 3 have similar impact signals. Downgraded Dame a bit for longevity/durability. Lowry gets a bonus for his on/off going way up in the playoffs, but with a lack of similar box score improvement, it's hard to know how much credit to give it. Ultimately, Sheed had the best RAPM numbers of the bunch and the most minutes and I couldn't find a good enough reason to take anyone else over him.

Of the old guys, the only one who played comparable minutes to the modern stars was Dantley and with him having lesser numbers than Dame with questionable impact signals, I can't really consider him while Lillard was on the board. I also looked at Sam Jones, Marques Johnson, Billy Cunningham, and Sidney Moncrief. I do give Jones some credit for having the most rings other than Russell, but his numbers looked a little too pedestrian and he only has 24K minutes. Cunningham and Johnson both had elite WOWYR, but again low minutes and Cunningham really only put up elite numbers in the early ABA which is hard to trust. And Moncrief has the incredible reputation and some good numbers, but again just 23K minutes. For now, I feel like the modern guys have the better cases although I'm open to data that shows something different.

How much of that minute difference is the old NBA rule that you couldn't play until your college class graduated? Most of these players lose 3 years off the beginning of their career compared to the modern 1 and done players. Also, Sam Jones didn't have high per game minute totals, Marques and Sidney had short primes (due to substance issues and injury issues respectively). Cunningham did play large minutes through his prime but was done by age 31 or 32.

First year in NBA
Sam Jones: Age 24 (averaged 4.6 PPG off the bench in his rookie season)
Billy Cunningham: Age 22
Marques Johnson: Age 21
Sidney Moncrief: Age 22

Rasheed Wallace: Age 21
Kyle Lowry: Age 20 (only played 175 minutes in rookie season, didn't become a regular starter until age 24)
Damian Lillard: Age 22

Honestly, I don't think it made much difference. Lowry and Jones are the only ones who didn't start their NBA careers at either age 21 or 22 and Lowry barely played in his age 22 season while Jones wasn't even ready to get regular NBA minutes at 24.

[Owly]

First year in NBA
Sam Jones: Age 24 (averaged 4.6 PPG off the bench in his rookie season)
Billy Cunningham: Age 22
Marques Johnson: Age 21
Sidney Moncrief: Age 22

Rasheed Wallace: Age 21
Kyle Lowry: Age 20 (only played 175 minutes in rookie season, didn't become a regular starter until age 24)
Damian Lillard: Age 22

Honestly, I don't think it made much difference. Lowry and Jones are the only ones who didn't start their NBA careers at either age 21 or 22 and Lowry barely played in his age 22 season while Jones wasn't even ready to get regular NBA minutes at 24.

Should that not read "while Jones was unable to immediately unseat the best shooting guard of the 50s, the best shooting guard in the league at that point, on the defending champs (a possible reason for additional conservatism if needed) as a black player (a potential reason for conservatism, if needed). Oh and made only moderate inroads into backup minutes competing at least partially against ... possibly/arguably/maybe the second best SG of the 50s (if so designated).

I don't know if I'd go for Jones here (or above Sharman), I haven't looked closely enough, in any case. At the same time, holding a guy delayed by doing military service and then arriving on a team with Sharman and Ramsey against a guy seems a touch harsh.

[penbeast0]

First year in NBA
Sam Jones: Age 24 (averaged 4.6 PPG off the bench in his rookie season)
Billy Cunningham: Age 22
Marques Johnson: Age 21
Sidney Moncrief: Age 22

Rasheed Wallace: Age 21
Kyle Lowry: Age 20 (only played 175 minutes in rookie season, didn't become a regular starter until age 24)
Damian Lillard: Age 22

Honestly, I don't think it made much difference. Lowry and Jones are the only ones who didn't start their NBA careers at either age 21 or 22 and Lowry barely played in his age 22 season while Jones wasn't even ready to get regular NBA minutes at 24.

Thanks.

Should that not read "while Jones was unable to immediately unseat the best shooting guard of the 50s, the best shooting guard in the league at that point, on the defending champs (a possible reason for additional conservatism if needed) as a black player (a potential reason for conservatism, if needed). Oh and made only moderate inroads into backup minutes competing at least partially against ... possibly/arguably/maybe the second best SG of the 50s (if so designated).

I don't know if I'd go for Jones here (or above Sharman), I haven't looked closely enough, in any case. At the same time, holding a guy delayed by doing military service and then arriving on a team with Sharman and Ramsey against a guy seems a touch harsh.

Other than 1965, Jones never exceeded 33 mpg in an era where the guys he was competing with for 2nd team All-NBA (Greer, Wilkens) both had 10 seasons of over 35 mpg (some over 40). So the critique of him playing limited minutes is legit. Obviously I don't consider it THAT important as I'm supporting Bobby Jones as well as Sam Jones but it's a legit issue.

[Owly]

First year in NBA
Sam Jones: Age 24 (averaged 4.6 PPG off the bench in his rookie season)
Billy Cunningham: Age 22
Marques Johnson: Age 21
Sidney Moncrief: Age 22

Rasheed Wallace: Age 21
Kyle Lowry: Age 20 (only played 175 minutes in rookie season, didn't become a regular starter until age 24)
Damian Lillard: Age 22

Honestly, I don't think it made much difference. Lowry and Jones are the only ones who didn't start their NBA careers at either age 21 or 22 and Lowry barely played in his age 22 season while Jones wasn't even ready to get regular NBA minutes at 24.

Thanks.

Should that not read "while Jones was unable to immediately unseat the best shooting guard of the 50s, the best shooting guard in the league at that point, on the defending champs (a possible reason for additional conservatism if needed) as a black player (a potential reason for conservatism, if needed). Oh and made only moderate inroads into backup minutes competing at least partially against ... possibly/arguably/maybe the second best SG of the 50s (if so designated).

I don't know if I'd go for Jones here (or above Sharman), I haven't looked closely enough, in any case. At the same time, holding a guy delayed by doing military service and then arriving on a team with Sharman and Ramsey against a guy seems a touch harsh.

Other than 1965, Jones never exceeded 33 mpg in an era where the guys he was competing with for 2nd team All-NBA (Greer, Wilkens) both had 10 seasons of over 35 mpg (some over 40). So the critique of him playing limited minutes is legit. Obviously I don't consider it THAT important as I'm supporting Bobby Jones as well as Sam Jones but it's a legit issue.

Total minutes is always a factor and Jones didn't play huge RS minutes. That wasn't what I was talking about.

I just don't think in terms of "readiness" listing low minutes and points without the context (primarily the players ahead of him and military service, perhaps at the margins going to a defending champ and being black) isn't really a fair view of readiness. His rookie Reference rate box aggregates are both better than Jerry West's from the same era (to differing degrees - Boston helps him with WS/48 here).

[Owly]

First year in NBA
Sam Jones: Age 24 (averaged 4.6 PPG off the bench in his rookie season)
Billy Cunningham: Age 22
Marques Johnson: Age 21
Sidney Moncrief: Age 22

Rasheed Wallace: Age 21
Kyle Lowry: Age 20 (only played 175 minutes in rookie season, didn't become a regular starter until age 24)
Damian Lillard: Age 22

Honestly, I don't think it made much difference. Lowry and Jones are the only ones who didn't start their NBA careers at either age 21 or 22 and Lowry barely played in his age 22 season while Jones wasn't even ready to get regular NBA minutes at 24.

Thanks.

Should that not read "while Jones was unable to immediately unseat the best shooting guard of the 50s, the best shooting guard in the league at that point, on the defending champs (a possible reason for additional conservatism if needed) as a black player (a potential reason for conservatism, if needed). Oh and made only moderate inroads into backup minutes competing at least partially against ... possibly/arguably/maybe the second best SG of the 50s (if so designated).

I don't know if I'd go for Jones here (or above Sharman), I haven't looked closely enough, in any case. At the same time, holding a guy delayed by doing military service and then arriving on a team with Sharman and Ramsey against a guy seems a touch harsh.

Other than 1965, Jones never exceeded 33 mpg in an era where the guys he was competing with for 2nd team All-NBA (Greer, Wilkens) both had 10 seasons of over 35 mpg (some over 40). So the critique of him playing limited minutes is legit. Obviously I don't consider it THAT important as I'm supporting Bobby Jones as well as Sam Jones but it's a legit issue.

Total minutes is always a factor and Jones didn't play huge RS minutes. That wasn't what I was talking about.

I just don't think in terms of "readiness" listing low minutes and points without the context (primarily the players ahead of him and military service, perhaps at the margins going to a defending champ and being black) isn't really a fair view of readiness. His rookie Reference rate box aggregates are both better than Jerry West's from the same era (to differing degrees - Boston helps him with WS/48 here).

Fwiw, once Jones fully seized the reins at SG (somewhat of a jobshare in '61) he never went below 34.6mpg in the playoffs until his final year averaging 36.4 from '62-'68.

[penbeast0]

Playoffs are a different beast, true.

[trex_8063]

Don't have time for a lot, just want to get a sort of lame vote-post in before the deadline.....

Induction vote: Vince Carter
Though I've said his longevity is oversold by the # of years played (too many of them are simply of negligible value), it's still pretty good. I like the combination of scoring, passable/vanilla playmaking for a wing with nice ball-control and decent defense that he provides.

His peak is impressive to me: 27.6/5.5/3.9 [in a slowed down defensive slog era] on passable/decent shooting efficiency and only 2.2 topg; this while leading the 8th-rated offense with not much help (had the league's best OBPM, fwiw), coming just a couple points away from knocking off the EC Champs in 7 games (while outplaying the media's pick for MVP).

His career RAPM profile is very solid for this stage, considering it comes over a career that spans >46k rs minutes.


Alternate vote: Paul George
AEnigma's convinced me to move this guy up a bit. Turnover economy leaves something to be desired (playmaking too, I guess)......but you have to like the combination of reasonably efficient volume scoring and elite wing defense that PG13 gives you. His longevity isn't great; though it's not terrible at this point either.
Very close with Wes Unseld for this spot.


Nomination: Damian Lillard
Alternate nom: Bob Cousy

[OhayoKD]

Vote

1. Paul George Saw his teams overperform their perceived against this projects's #1 multiple times(granted injuries helped) on multiple eventual champions, had an mvpish regular season peak and for all choking accusations, admirably led the clippers in kawhi's absence in the 2021 playoffs.

Nomination

1. Rudy Gobert

Alt: Damian Lillard, will look to back Walton when he gets support.

[penbeast0]

Dang that's a good point. Would I rather start a team for the last 10 years with Rudy or Dame? The answer for me is actually Rudy. Can someone make a case that Lillard has had more impact than Gobert? They are contemporaries so the comps are pretty clean.