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Largely looking for thoughts on players from pre-'94 and the arrival of +/- data.

Who are some players you think had Allstar (or higher) levels of impact, but were largely missed by the traditional box-score (pts/reb/ast). Bonus points if they were missed by contemporary awards. Are there any guys you think approached MVP candidacy without a respectable box score (my impression is no, but maybe someone has a player to champion?)?

Shane Battier as an example from the modern era. Career best slash line of approximately 10/5/2 on decent efficiency.

It's relatively easy to pick out guys from box-scores who looked to have excelled in certain areas and then watch the film and see whether or not one agrees, but if you're not following a particular guy it can be tricky to pick up on the 'little things' guys like Battier.

Thanks y'all, hoping to find many new players to enjoy

Kind-of a tricky question because I am not quite sure what you mean by missed by the box score. You cite Battier, but… well, maybe you could argue he offered fringe all-star value at his peak, but that still seems like a tough sell. There are exceedingly few players who are not showing up somewhere in the box score while also playing at an “all-star” level.

Speaking more to the Shane Battier idea, maybe Don Chaney? Michael Cooper feels a little more recognised than what you are asking. Lonnie Shelton managed to be an all-star, but principally he fits.

Box score and recognition are different. Mainly defensive impact guys that got recognition but looked like less than their worth in the box score would include Slater Martin, KC Jones, Paul Silas, Wes Unseld, Bobby Jones, Mookie Blaylock, Theo Ratliff, Ben Wallace, Tony Allen, Udonis Haslem, Iggy, and Al Horford.

Mo Cheeks and Mookie Blaylock come to mind from old legends. These guys look really good on impact stats and on film but don't stand out when it comes to box score.

Rudy Gobert got skipped for multiple all-star teams.

Draymond Green has been skipped to for an all-star team.

Derrick White in his role this season has provided all-star impact.

Rasheed Wallace

Vlade Divac


In terms of Pre-94 guys (some have AS appearances)...

Michael Cooper

Nate McMillan

Danny Ainge

Doc Rivers

Paul Pressey

Michael Williams

Derek Harper

Micheal Ray Richardson

Tom Boerwinkle

Dan Majerle

Alvin Adams

Sam Lacey

Jerome Kersey

A lot of these “pre-'94” names are making me feel like I aged rapidly.

eminence wrote:Largely looking for thoughts on players from pre-'94 and the arrival of +/- data.

Who are some players you think had Allstar (or higher) levels of impact, but were largely missed by the traditional box-score (pts/reb/ast). Bonus points if they were missed by contemporary awards. Are there any guys you think approached MVP candidacy without a respectable box score (my impression is no, but maybe someone has a player to champion?)?

Shane Battier as an example from the modern era. Career best slash line of approximately 10/5/2 on decent efficiency.

It's relatively easy to pick out guys from box-scores who looked to have excelled in certain areas and then watch the film and see whether or not one agrees, but if you're not following a particular guy it can be tricky to pick up on the 'little things' guys like Battier.

Thanks y'all, hoping to find many new players to enjoy

For single year, in season WoWY type stuff (and an example of a bad boxscore) '93 Chris Dudley could work as a possible example.

Box aggregates are poor (extent depends on measure chosen).

Most impressions and original idea is from STATS inc, I gone a bit deeper on some bits.

Caveats....
There is Anderson out at the same time ... but with Dudley, without Anderson was apparently going fine.
Dudley misses 11 games. 6 road. 5 home.
Cavs twice: 6.30 SRS
Pacers twice: 1.77 SRS
Pistons twice: -1.10
Bulls: 6.19
Knicks: 5.87
Magic: 1.35
Celtics: 0.93
Bullets: -6.49

Other notes
His absence is at the end of the season. One or both teams could be resting or whatever else ...

In games Dudley plays NJ are +197 for 2.774647887 average points dif.
In those he doesn't they are -94 for -8.545454545. fwiw they go 1-10.

Stats felt the Nets did better the more he played. I chopped it into more buckets. Again correlation isn't necessarily causation.

30+ minutes. 8 games. +68. +8.5 per game.
20-29 minutes. 28g. +116. 4.142857143
10-19m. 28g. +17. 0.607142857
less than 10. 7g. -4, -0.571428571
No Dudley ... see above.

One season only, noisy measure, the "out schedule looks rough etc.

Edit: Looking more at missed by boxscore, and an example I knew of rather than than making a claim for a specific level.

Brought this up in the other thread but Al Attles was a recent find for me as suspected sneaky impact guy due to elite defensive reputation for a guard and is a more efficient scorer than KC Jones though has worse assists. Someone else has to be good on 64 Warriors if you think Rodgers is overrated and Meschery is kind of just a PPG on average % guy. Their playoff lineup of Rodgers, Attles, Meschery, Thurmond and Wilt is pretty interesting. They didn't need him as much in 67 (only 15mpg in playoffs) but I guess he could have still been making an impact.

Random 50s players that sound good on D: Mel Hutchins, Nat Clifton, Earl Lloyd, and Jim Loscutoff. Hutchins was especially lauded and once held 26ppg MVP Pettit to 15ppg on 31% FG in playoff series. Jack McMahon on the Hawks maybe, I only found a quote about him and Slater as a combo doing great job on Cousy, but since he is playing 30mpg on late 50s Hawks finals teams despite horrific scoring numbers it would add up if it was a D/passing thing.

Bucky Bockhorn on the Royals sounds like a candidate for a solid passing/defense wing role player that was starting in early 60s and then was around 22-24mpg during their best regular seasons.

Don Buse
Bobby Jones
Gus Williams
Terry Tyler
Buck Williams
Larry Smith
Mark Eaton
Larry Nance
Fat Lever
T.R. Dunn
Alvin Robertson
Nate McMillan

Not entirely pre-94 but Mookie Blaylock. Has fringe all star level box score stats and only made one All Star team in 1994 in which he averaged 14/5/10 on a horrid 49.4TS

PI RAPM however indicate he had an excellent 3 year prime from 1997-1999 as a two way superstar.

McBubbles wrote:Not entirely pre-94 but Mookie Blaylock. Has fringe all star level box score stats and only made one All Star team in 1994 in which he averaged 14/5/10 on a horrid 49.4TS

PI RAPM however indicate he had an excellent 3 year prime from 1997-1999 as a two way superstar.

I feel like Mookie Blaylock was the Jrue Holiday of his time. He was underrated because he never played on a great team. Holiday would have ended up the same way if he stayed in New Orleans.

eminence wrote:but were largely missed by the traditional box-score (pts/reb/ast)

There is more in the box score than just those three stats though. Many of the names listed ITT are guys with a lot of steals or blocks or have high efficiency which is captured in the box score but is just not valued highly traditionally. For example, Mookie Blaylock has been mentioned a few times but I am not really sure we can say a player who peaked at 2nd in the league in assists and steals in the same season was "missed" by box scores.

Simply by virtue of the box score being less complete, the best players here will most likely be from the 50s/60s. Personally, my pick would be Dave DeBusschere. No steals or blocks to showcase his defense and no 3s to account for his range and spacing. He looks like an average player in every box score composite but is one of the best players of his era in WOWY metrics.

eminence wrote:Largely looking for thoughts on players from pre-'94 and the arrival of +/- data.

Who are some players you think had Allstar (or higher) levels of impact, but were largely missed by the traditional box-score (pts/reb/ast). Bonus points if they were missed by contemporary awards. Are there any guys you think approached MVP candidacy without a respectable box score (my impression is no, but maybe someone has a player to champion?)?

Shane Battier as an example from the modern era. Career best slash line of approximately 10/5/2 on decent efficiency.

It's relatively easy to pick out guys from box-scores who looked to have excelled in certain areas and then watch the film and see whether or not one agrees, but if you're not following a particular guy it can be tricky to pick up on the 'little things' guys like Battier.

Thanks y'all, hoping to find many new players to enjoy

Lots of people offering specific players so I'll zag by focusing on skillsets:

Skills great for being underrated by the (traditional) box-score are

-> Strong Big or Wing Paint-Protection

-> Help Defense

-> High-volume ball-handling

-> High-value(not the same as volume) creation(think passer-rating)

-> High-value scoring(scoriing a bunch with the defense keyed on you is different than scoring in single coverage or wide open)

-> Gravity

-> Charge taking

-> Low-Error defense

-> Forcing the other team to accumulate fouls

-> Communication/teammate coordination

-> Coaching/Psuedo coaching(drawing up plays, devising schemes, calling substitutions, calling out opposing substitutions, being Bill Russell)


Last three notably could conceivably work against a player's impact as well if someone is specifically going off a few minuites a game(on/off, rapm):

MrLurker wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

MrLurker wrote:This is an interesting notion. I wonder if this concept also works with offense - with quarterbacks like Magic, Robertson, James, Paul, and Nash

In theory a player who can do both - be a linebacker and quarterback - may see the largest negative effect on their WAR-style stats. Bird, James, and Paul come to mind as possible examples. To a lesser degree - perhaps players like Pippen and Stockton too.

And then there is a player-coach like Russell whose intangible effect may be the most pronounced - presuming this concept is accurate.

Certainly works with offense too.

I will say that position on the court matters here. If you're facing away from most of the players on the court - as a point of attack defender typically is - you're not going to be able to take on the linebacker role. Similarly on offense, someone out on the perimeter facing the basketball will be best able to call the play. This has a natural tendency to make those positioned to do it on defense not able to do it on offense, and vice versa.

But of course it's not a rule. A guy like Draymond will tend to be on the interior on defense but often works on the perimeter on offense.

Maybe the ideal for intangible winning or WAR-style production are the players in the middle? Guards are too small to play line-backer and bigs are too big to play quarterback but a wing - or an undersized power forward - might be capable of doing both. Bird, James, and Draymond - though I'm not sure how much he offers from an offensive vantage point - fit that bill.

As I say that - Jokic seems a sort of player who could do both and plays center.

I wonder if there is a way to attach a number to this effect - but maybe that's a fool's errand

I think Bird being a defensive general is dubious but whatever.

Writing all this, Chris Paul seems like a notable example though. Otherwise the "most underrated list" is probably going to be dominated by bigs who are great defensively.

I think this whole concept is going to be dominated by defensive specialists. Otherwise there is some degree of box score capture of value. Exceptions might be the intangible/locker room types like a Paul Silas or Udonis Haslem, guys who are great at running an offense without registering high assist rates like Walt Frazier or Chauncey Billups, guys who are great at blocking out without great rebound totals like Nene Hilario, and maybe great pick screeners like a Wes Unseld or Draymond Green.

McBubbles wrote:Not entirely pre-94 but Mookie Blaylock. Has fringe all star level box score stats and only made one All Star team in 1994 in which he averaged 14/5/10 on a horrid 49.4TS

PI RAPM however indicate he had an excellent 3 year prime from 1997-1999 as a two way superstar.

Blaylock's yearly on-offs for 94-96 are also very strong.
12.3
10.3
14.4
The unweighted average of those is the 2nd best I've seen (regarding those with numbers for all 3 years) - far distant from (behind) Robinson, a hairs width in front of Olajuwon.

I guess by that approach the trick here is to look at the players with the worst backups.