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Listening to the latest Thinking Basketball, and how Wembanyama could be an O1 D1 on a championship team.

Looking back, I think the last time this happened was Tim Duncan 2003.

Before then probably Hakeem 1995.

And before then, maybe Kareem 1971.

It’s pretty rare. Am I missing anyone else?

trelos6 wrote:Listening to the latest Thinking Basketball, and how Wembanyama could be an O1 D1 on a championship team.

Looking back, I think the last time this happened was Tim Duncan 2003.

Before then probably Hakeem 1995.

And before then, maybe Kareem 1971.

It’s pretty rare. Am I missing anyone else?

Lebron? 00 Shaq? And Walton, 80 Kareem

trelos6 wrote:Listening to the latest Thinking Basketball, and how Wembanyama could be an O1 D1 on a championship team.

Looking back, I think the last time this happened was Tim Duncan 2003.

Before then probably Hakeem 1995.

And before then, maybe Kareem 1971.

It’s pretty rare. Am I missing anyone else?

66-67 Wilt could qualify. Potentially 2016 Lebron?

I think lebron did it a couple times as well no?. I don't remember outstanding defensive bigs at his service in MIA and CLE. You can argue Battier but minutes difference is too glaring. it's timmeh only if you narrow down the search to bigs.

trelos6 wrote:Listening to the latest Thinking Basketball, and how Wembanyama could be an O1 D1 on a championship team.

Looking back, I think the last time this happened was Tim Duncan 2003.

Before then probably Hakeem 1995.

And before then, maybe Kareem 1971.

It’s pretty rare. Am I missing anyone else?

Depends what one means. Is it playoff centric given championship team. Or are we talking championship caliber team (not here, wrt having done it so that would suggest playoff focused).

Is is accumulated value on an end, rate, or both?

Does it regard "primacy" or goodness or value?

How much does "could be" (but perhaps doesn't happen to be with this roster construction, though getting to another such, equally as good, construction may be quite simple) come into play.

One could look at something like
OWS, OWS/48, DWS, DWS/48
OVORP, OBPM, DVORP, DBPM
One could tinker with baselines for cumulative measures ... and might need to for OWS, DWS. Obviously these measures of D are pretty crude too (one might seek to integrate impact side stuff though samples will be small and uneven).

Fwiw, this would take out the Olajuwon year suggested as at least three the three Reference offensive measures are all behind at least Drexler and eyeballing I would guess is behind Drexler in OVORP though his minutes advantage would at least narrow the gap). '94 on the other hand is supported by this measure. This also raises the primacy issue ... Olajuwon is very high usage in '95 but given the narrow margins of some series, they're arguably reliant on an offensive level in which perhaps every other rotation player is shooting better than him in TS% terms (depending where one draws the line regarding rotation).

trelos6 wrote:Listening to the latest Thinking Basketball, and how Wembanyama could be an O1 D1 on a championship team.

Looking back, I think the last time this happened was Tim Duncan 2003.

Before then probably Hakeem 1995.

And before then, maybe Kareem 1971.

It’s pretty rare. Am I missing anyone else?

Giannis in 2021
Lebron in 2012, 2013, and 2016
Duncan in 2003
Shaq in 2000
Hakeem in 1994 and 1995
Kareem in 1980 and 1971
Wilt in 1967
It's rare but not nearly as rare as you're making it out to be.

Rishkar wrote:

trelos6 wrote:Listening to the latest Thinking Basketball, and how Wembanyama could be an O1 D1 on a championship team.

Looking back, I think the last time this happened was Tim Duncan 2003.

Before then probably Hakeem 1995.

And before then, maybe Kareem 1971.

It’s pretty rare. Am I missing anyone else?

66-67 Wilt could qualify. Potentially 2016 Lebron?

Okay seriously, what are we doing here

AdagioPace wrote:I think lebron did it a couple times as well no?. I don't remember outstanding defensive bigs at his service in MIA and CLE. You can argue Battier but minutes difference is too glaring. it's timmeh only if you narrow down the search to bigs.

Best defensive big performance on either team was probably Mosgov in 2015. Problem is

A. big minutes difference
B. team suffered more in games with no lebron than no mosgov defensively
C. The nuggets defense was worse with him on the court that same year before he was traded to Cleveland

OhayoKD wrote:

AdagioPace wrote:I think lebron did it a couple times as well no?. I don't remember outstanding defensive bigs at his service in MIA and CLE. You can argue Battier but minutes difference is too glaring. it's timmeh only if you narrow down the search to bigs.

Best defensive big performance on either team was probably Mosgov in 2015. Problem is

A. big minutes difference
B. team suffered more in games with no lebron than no mosgov defensively
C. The nuggets defense was worse with him on the court that same year before he was traded to Cleveland

Mozgov is barely even good defensively and is incredibly exposable in a playoff series

I don't see a reason not to have Lebron as defensive MVP in 12, 13 and 16, Tristan is close to his value in 16 finals but not overall.

OhayoKD wrote:

trelos6 wrote:Listening to the latest Thinking Basketball, and how Wembanyama could be an O1 D1 on a championship team.

Looking back, I think the last time this happened was Tim Duncan 2003.

Before then probably Hakeem 1995.

And before then, maybe Kareem 1971.

It’s pretty rare. Am I missing anyone else?

Giannis in 2021
Lebron in 2012, 2013, and 2016
Duncan in 2003
Shaq in 2000
Hakeem in 1994 and 1995
Kareem in 1980 and 1971
Wilt in 1967
It's rare but not nearly as rare as you're making it out to be.

Rishkar wrote:

trelos6 wrote:Listening to the latest Thinking Basketball, and how Wembanyama could be an O1 D1 on a championship team.

Looking back, I think the last time this happened was Tim Duncan 2003.

Before then probably Hakeem 1995.

And before then, maybe Kareem 1971.

It’s pretty rare. Am I missing anyone else?

66-67 Wilt could qualify. Potentially 2016 Lebron?

Okay seriously, what are we doing here

I'm not sure I understand the question.

who was D1 for last year's Nugz?

pancakes3 wrote:who was D1 for last year's Nugz?

I'd say Aaron Gordon

Rishkar wrote:

pancakes3 wrote:who was D1 for last year's Nugz?

I'd say Aaron Gordon

Definitely.

On another note, my list:

• 1967 Wilt
• 1971/80 Kareem
• 1994/95 Hakeem
• 2000-02 Shaq
• 2003 Duncan
• 2012/13/16 James
• 2021 Giannis
• 202n Wemby

I’d say ‘08 Garnett has a credible shot at O1 D1, he led the team in scoring during the 2008 playoffs, took the most shots, and was key to their offensive rebounding attack which was a real engine of the ‘08 Boston offense, grabbing nearly 3 per game. If you think that’s not necessarily important, Boston grabbed 100 more offensive rebounds in the 2008 playoffs than any other team: 288 across 26 games, 11 per game.

He was obviously the D1 by a wide margin, and closer to O1 than it may appear on the surface. He only averaged 1.5 fewer assists than Pierce as well.

I’m going to give him O1 D1 for 2008.

rk2023 wrote:
Definitely.

On another note, my list:

• 1967 Wilt
• 1994/95 Hakeem
• 2000-02 Shaq
• 2003 Duncan
• 2012/13/16 James
• 2021 Giannis
• 202n Wemby

I think you overlooked Kareem twice if not 3 times, Reed in 1970 and Walton.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

rk2023 wrote:
Definitely.

On another note, my list:

• 1967 Wilt
• 1994/95 Hakeem
• 2000-02 Shaq
• 2003 Duncan
• 2012/13/16 James
• 2021 Giannis
• 202n Wemby

I think you overlooked Kareem twice if not 3 times, Reed in 1970 and Walton.

Completely forgot about Kareem. I’ll edit that back, great catch.

As for Reed, I would personally prefer Walt as the 1-O on those Knicks teams.

Walton is a case where there is a yes and no part to it. A lot of the WOWY impact we have for Bill, so I remember, was on the defensive side. I think an argument can be made for Lucas here, but it’s hard to say either way. Regardless, I view Blazermania as more of a ‘offense by committee’ situation.

rk2023 wrote:
Completely forgot about Kareem. I’ll edit that back, great catch.

As for Reed, I would personally prefer Walt as the 1-O on those Knicks teams.

Walton is a case where there is a yes and no part to it. A lot of the WOWY impact we have for Bill, so I remember, was on the defensive side. I think an argument can be made for Lucas here, but it’s hard to say either way. Regardless, I view Blazermania as more of a ‘offense by committee’ situation.

I think Frazier has an argument and I'd see them as co #1's in the rs but Reed had a monstrous playoff run that year while Frazier was pretty up and down(including a terrible conf final) so I'd say Reed deserves it.

trelos6 wrote:Listening to the latest Thinking Basketball, and how Wembanyama could be an O1 D1 on a championship team.

Looking back, I think the last time this happened was Tim Duncan 2003.

Before then probably Hakeem 1995.

And before then, maybe Kareem 1971.

It’s pretty rare. Am I missing anyone else?

I don’t buy Wemby being 01 on offense. Defense obviously yes

But it’s been 2 years now (Bascially did the same in the French league with some notable changes) and there’s a lot of flash but the substance is a no from me.

Dirk/Luka/Bron. Jokic when he got playing time

Curry

The signs were just better.

Now there is a world where it’s like Giannis with a ton of volume and winning mainly on the back of a defensive orientated team but I do believe that setup can be exposed. And that list was borderline perfectly setup to min/max it.

But basically Bron, Duncan & Giannis in recent times.

EmpireFalls wrote:I’d say ‘08 Garnett has a credible shot at O1 D1, he led the team in scoring during the 2008 playoffs, took the most shots, and was key to their offensive rebounding attack which was a real engine of the ‘08 Boston offense, grabbing nearly 3 per game. If you think that’s not necessarily important, Boston grabbed 100 more offensive rebounds in the 2008 playoffs than any other team: 288 across 26 games, 11 per game.

He was obviously the D1 by a wide margin, and closer to O1 than it may appear on the surface. He only averaged 1.5 fewer assists than Pierce as well.

I’m going to give him O1 D1 for 2008.

I don't know. Looking at O-RAPM taken from JE's RS+PO RAPM, both Pierce and Allen are higher than Garnett for 07-08(not that Garnett wasn't good):

Pierce: 4.1
Allen: 3.45
Garnett: 3.00

That plus Garnett's poor shooting in the Finals makes me skeptical of giving him O1. I think that's Pierce.

Dr Positivity wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

AdagioPace wrote:I think lebron did it a couple times as well no?. I don't remember outstanding defensive bigs at his service in MIA and CLE. You can argue Battier but minutes difference is too glaring. it's timmeh only if you narrow down the search to bigs.

Best defensive big performance on either team was probably Mosgov in 2015. Problem is

A. big minutes difference
B. team suffered more in games with no lebron than no mosgov defensively
C. The nuggets defense was worse with him on the court that same year before he was traded to Cleveland

Mozgov is barely even good defensively and is incredibly exposable in a playoff series

I don't see a reason not to have Lebron as defensive MVP in 12, 13 and 16, Tristan is close to his value in 16 finals but not overall.

He played well in 2015 on Cleveland specifically. Fell off as early as 2016 though.

OldSchoolNoBull wrote:

EmpireFalls wrote:I’d say ‘08 Garnett has a credible shot at O1 D1, he led the team in scoring during the 2008 playoffs, took the most shots, and was key to their offensive rebounding attack which was a real engine of the ‘08 Boston offense, grabbing nearly 3 per game. If you think that’s not necessarily important, Boston grabbed 100 more offensive rebounds in the 2008 playoffs than any other team: 288 across 26 games, 11 per game.

He was obviously the D1 by a wide margin, and closer to O1 than it may appear on the surface. He only averaged 1.5 fewer assists than Pierce as well.

I’m going to give him O1 D1 for 2008.

I don't know. Looking at O-RAPM taken from JE's RS+PO RAPM, both Pierce and Allen are higher than Garnett for 07-08(not that Garnett wasn't good):

Pierce: 4.1
Allen: 3.45
Garnett: 3.00

That plus Garnett's poor shooting in the Finals makes me skeptical of giving him O1. I think that's Pierce.

This is fair, but I will just say that if you look at the 2008 PS specifically, I think Garnett's argument arguably increases.

Kevin Garnett in the 2008 PS

Offensive BPM-4.3
O-PIPM-1.61
Offensive Winshares-2.1
Offensive Backpicks BPM-3.2

Paul Pierce in the 2008 PS

Offensive BPM-2.6
O-PIPM-1.56
Offensive Winshares-1.6
Offensive Backpicks BPM-3.1

You could definitely make an argument that Kevin Garnett was the offensive leader on those teams.