2024 Jokic vs 2009 Kobe/Pau

[rand]

Would you take Kobe and Pau or Jokic alone as the core of your team in 2024? The rest of your starting lineup is filled with quality starters but no other All-Stars. The team has an average bench.

2024 rules/refs and coaches.

[70sFan]

Kobe and Pau with solid roster is a contending team.

Jokic with solid roster without any all-stars won't give you the title.

[Matt15]

I’ll take the Kobe/Pau duo over Jokic alone rather easily.

[TheGOATRises007]

I'd always pick the duo over a solo in hypotheticals like this.

[AdagioPace]

There's only some ultra holistic seasons by Lebron (i.e. 2016, 17) I would pick over peak Kobe/Pau duo and I'm not even 100% sure.

[Wallace_Wallace]

Pretty big Jokic fan here, but if you have a #1/#2 set, you have to take that. Because there are two players with complimentary skillsets, it is much easier to build around Kobe/Pau.

[Amare_1_Knicks]

Kobe and Pau with solid roster is a contending team.

Jokic with solid roster without any all-stars won't give you the title.

Hmm, I guess the wrench to throw into your take is that Jokic just did win the title without another all-star last season.

That being said, I’d still take Kobe/Pau. Too quality a proven duo to not go with.

[Rishkar]

I think Jokic+Murray would be a closer scenario, it's just really hard for one player to match the impact of two stars.

[OhayoKD]

Kobe and Pau with solid roster is a contending team.

Jokic with solid roster without any all-stars won't give you the title.

Hmm, I guess the wrench to throw into your take is that Jokic just did win the title without another all-star last season.

That being said, I’d still take Kobe/Pau. Too quality a proven duo to not go with.

Murray performed a bit better than your average all-star in those playoffs though(and performed like an outright superstar in the previous healthy run)

[lessthanjake]

I think it depends on how we are defining the rest of these guys’ teams. Are we saying that everyone else on the team is just an average type of player? Or are we saying they have a randomly distributed set of other players (i.e. a decent chance that the unmentioned players include at least a borderline all-star type of player)? If everyone else is going to be bang average, then I think you have to go with Kobe + Pau, because two really good players is essentially always going to be better than one, especially in the playoffs. But if the rest of the roster is randomly distributed, then I could see taking Jokic and banking on the solid chance that you get someone else on the roster similarly good as Jamal Murray for instance—because, if you do get someone in that sort of ballpark, then I think you’re better off with Jokic as your #1 guy as opposed to Kobe (even assuming that the Kobe + Pau team has a chance of ending up with another good player too).

[ty 4191]

Jokic with solid roster without any all-stars won't give you the title.

Uh, he did is last year, Sir.

Read on Twitter

[70sFan]

Jokic with solid roster without any all-stars won't give you the title.

Uh, he did is last year, Sir.

Read on Twitter

Yeah, I know tha Murray technically wasn't an all-star last year. I am also aware that he played better than many all-stars would in the playoffs.

[OhayoKD]

Jokic with solid roster without any all-stars won't give you the title.

Uh, he did is last year, Sir.

Read on Twitter

Yeah, I know tha Murray technically wasn't an all-star last year. I am also aware that he played better than many all-stars would in the playoffs.

He also literally outassisted and outscored prime Jokic a few playoffs prior while handling the ball, playing better defense, and facing comparable defensive attention(probably outright more against the Lakers).

There's obviously a value disparity with the assists, but still.

[lessthanjake]

Jokic with solid roster without any all-stars won't give you the title.

Uh, he did is last year, Sir.

Read on Twitter

Yeah, I know tha Murray technically wasn't an all-star last year. I am also aware that he played better than many all-stars would in the playoffs.

A player playing like an all-star in the playoffs and actually being at that level in general are definitely two different things, though. Given that peoples’ form is variable over time, when you have a whole supporting cast, the chances are pretty good that one player will happen to be in particularly good form at a given time. So most really good teams will have a non-all-star playing like an all-star in the playoffs—especially when they have a star like Jokic that gets the best out of his teammates. But the formula to have a good chance at a title is typically to have two guys who are just at that level all the time and then have one or more others players who happen to play at that sort of level in the playoffs. Which is of course better than having only one guy who is at that level all the time and then having one or more other players who happen to play at that sort of level in the playoffs.

That said, I’m not sure this discussion really matters much as it pertains to Jamal Murray, since I actually think he is an all-star level player in general (and mostly hasn’t made one yet because of injuries). He’s not at the all-NBA sort of level, but he’s at a low-level all-star level IMO. So I’d say my first paragraph above would probably apply more to someone like Andrew Wiggins in 2022—who probably played at a borderline all-star sort of level in the playoffs but definitely isn’t that sort of player in general.

[One_and_Done]

The fact it's 2 vs 1 tells you all you need to know about who the best guy of the 3 is.

[70sFan]

Uh, he did is last year, Sir.

Read on Twitter

Yeah, I know tha Murray technically wasn't an all-star last year. I am also aware that he played better than many all-stars would in the playoffs.

A player playing like an all-star in the playoffs and actually being at that level in general are definitely two different things, though. Given that peoples’ form is variable over time, when you have a whole supporting cast, the chances are pretty good that one player will happen to be in particularly good form at a given time. So most really good teams will have a non-all-star playing like an all-star in the playoffs—especially when they have a star like Jokic that gets the best out of his teammates. But the formula to have a good chance at a title is typically to have two guys who are just at that level all the time and then have one or more others players who happen to play at that sort of level in the playoffs. Which is of course better than having only one guy who is at that level all the time and then having one or more other players who happen to play at that sort of level in the playoffs.

That said, I’m not sure this discussion really matters much as it pertains to Jamal Murray, since I actually think he is an all-star level player in general (and mostly hasn’t made one yet because of injuries). He’s not at the all-NBA sort of level, but he’s at a low-level all-star level IMO. So I’d say my first paragraph above would probably apply more to someone like Andrew Wiggins in 2022—who probably played at a borderline all-star sort of level in the playoffs but definitely isn’t that sort of player in general.

Jamal Murray a low all-star level player? In the playoffs? I don't buy that at all

[CodeBreaker]

The only player I'd pick over Kobe/Pau duo is Peak MJ.

[Asianiac_24]

I’d probably take Kobe/Pau over Jokic/Murray, much less just Jokic

[lessthanjake]

Yeah, I know tha Murray technically wasn't an all-star last year. I am also aware that he played better than many all-stars would in the playoffs.

A player playing like an all-star in the playoffs and actually being at that level in general are definitely two different things, though. Given that peoples’ form is variable over time, when you have a whole supporting cast, the chances are pretty good that one player will happen to be in particularly good form at a given time. So most really good teams will have a non-all-star playing like an all-star in the playoffs—especially when they have a star like Jokic that gets the best out of his teammates. But the formula to have a good chance at a title is typically to have two guys who are just at that level all the time and then have one or more others players who happen to play at that sort of level in the playoffs. Which is of course better than having only one guy who is at that level all the time and then having one or more other players who happen to play at that sort of level in the playoffs.

That said, I’m not sure this discussion really matters much as it pertains to Jamal Murray, since I actually think he is an all-star level player in general (and mostly hasn’t made one yet because of injuries). He’s not at the all-NBA sort of level, but he’s at a low-level all-star level IMO. So I’d say my first paragraph above would probably apply more to someone like Andrew Wiggins in 2022—who probably played at a borderline all-star sort of level in the playoffs but definitely isn’t that sort of player in general.

Jamal Murray a low all-star level player? In the playoffs? I don't buy that at all

He’s a low-level all-star player who, due to peoples’ form being variable over time, happens to have played a bit better than that in the low sample size of the playoffs. I thought it was clear from the context of my post that the part about “low-level all-star level” was referring to how good he is in general, rather than referring to what his form happens to have been in the playoffs.

[OhayoKD]

A player playing like an all-star in the playoffs and actually being at that level in general are definitely two different things, though. Given that peoples’ form is variable over time, when you have a whole supporting cast, the chances are pretty good that one player will happen to be in particularly good form at a given time. So most really good teams will have a non-all-star playing like an all-star in the playoffs—especially when they have a star like Jokic that gets the best out of his teammates. But the formula to have a good chance at a title is typically to have two guys who are just at that level all the time and then have one or more others players who happen to play at that sort of level in the playoffs. Which is of course better than having only one guy who is at that level all the time and then having one or more other players who happen to play at that sort of level in the playoffs.

That said, I’m not sure this discussion really matters much as it pertains to Jamal Murray, since I actually think he is an all-star level player in general (and mostly hasn’t made one yet because of injuries). He’s not at the all-NBA sort of level, but he’s at a low-level all-star level IMO. So I’d say my first paragraph above would probably apply more to someone like Andrew Wiggins in 2022—who probably played at a borderline all-star sort of level in the playoffs but definitely isn’t that sort of player in general.

Jamal Murray a low all-star level player? In the playoffs? I don't buy that at all

He’s a low-level all-star player who, due to peoples’ form being variable over time, happens to have played a bit better than that in the low sample size of the playoffs. I thought it was clear from the context of my post that the part about “low-level all-star level” was referring to how good he is in general, rather than referring to what his form happens to have been in the playoffs.

The nuggets were not the best regular season team in 2023(or really all that close) with "not all-star" Murray so this doesn't really say anything about Jokic's championship prospects without an all-star. As is, Murray's 2020 run was a much better performance than his 2023 run and much better than what the vast majority of all-stars have ever pulled off in the postseason.

IOW, Murray has played well above "all-star" in the parts of the season that Jokic's teams have ever had notable success in. Given that Jokic's assists and ast% went down while his tov and tov% rate went up, I'm skeptical it was Jokic "getting the best out of his teamamtes" jumping that turned Murray from a 20-point scorer into a 26-point scorer(note: both versions played next to Jokic).