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Is Wade's peak better than LeBron's worst prime years?

ardee wrote:Is Wade's peak better than LeBron's worst prime years?

Wade outright outplayed 2011 Lebron so that ones pretty obvious.

2015 Lebron is empirically one of the most valuable players ever so not much of a case for Wade there unless you are assuming an upper-limit on value without effecient scoring(Goat turnover-economy+all-time creation+all-time wing defense+high-volume scoring+two-way floor general can explain the massive impact signals and team performance otherwise)

OhayoKD wrote:

ardee wrote:Is Wade's peak better than LeBron's worst prime years?

Wade outright outplayed 2011 Lebron so that ones pretty obvious.

2015 Lebron is empirically one of the most valuable players ever so not much of a case for Wade there unless you are assuming an upper-limit on value without effecient scoring(Goat turnover-economy+all-time creation+all-time wing defense+high-volume scoring+two-way floor general can explain the massive impact signals and team performance otherwise)

What?

How exactly?

TheGOATRises007 wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

ardee wrote:Is Wade's peak better than LeBron's worst prime years?

Wade outright outplayed 2011 Lebron so that ones pretty obvious.

2015 Lebron is empirically one of the most valuable players ever so not much of a case for Wade there unless you are assuming an upper-limit on value without effecient scoring(Goat turnover-economy+all-time creation+all-time wing defense+high-volume scoring+two-way floor general can explain the massive impact signals and team performance otherwise)

What?

How exactly?

The how is Lebron handles the ball alot more than whoever someone might use usage/tov% to proclaim as clearly less turnover-prone. And then his turnovers plummeted to 11 percent while his ball-handling, playmaking, and scoring load shot up in the postseason. Then in the final against the best defense in the league with the offense essentially being synymous with Lebron, his tov% dropped to 8.5%.

That's the sort of **** that let's you take the 2015 warriors to 6 without your two best teammates even when you're not shooting so well.


The only season that clears it is in that regard is...2009 Lebron, who went 11% with far more of the offense running through him in the regular season, and then dropped that to 8-percent with even more of the offense running through him in the playoffs.

If you really wanted to be a debatelord and get the rhetoric right, I could see and accept arguments for 2011 LeBron over 2009 Wade in the regular season and 2015 LeBron over 2009 Wade in postseason. Actually, 2011 LeBron over 2009 Wade in the regular season only might not even require much rhetoric it may just be the correct take.

But, given how Wade alpha’d the 2011 Finals next to LeBron in real life, it’s pretty obvious he was better than 2011 LBJ, and 2015 LeBron was very questionable in the regular season before the “trip to Miami”.

EmpireFalls wrote:If you really wanted to be a debatelord and get the rhetoric right, I could see and accept arguments for 2011 LeBron over 2009 Wade in the regular season and 2015 LeBron over 2009 Wade in postseason. Actually, 2011 LeBron over 2009 Wade in the regular season only might not even require much rhetoric it may just be the correct take.

But, given how Wade alpha’d the 2011 Finals next to LeBron in real life, it’s pretty obvious he was better than 2011 LBJ, and 2015 LeBron was very questionable in the regular season before the “trip to Miami”.

Debate lording is pretending the regular season where the team got historically better with the player in question is not actually historic because the slashline was not to your liking.

There is no serious argument for 2009 Wade against 2015 Lebron. RS or playoffs.

OhayoKD wrote:

EmpireFalls wrote:If you really wanted to be a debatelord and get the rhetoric right, I could see and accept arguments for 2011 LeBron over 2009 Wade in the regular season and 2015 LeBron over 2009 Wade in postseason. Actually, 2011 LeBron over 2009 Wade in the regular season only might not even require much rhetoric it may just be the correct take.

But, given how Wade alpha’d the 2011 Finals next to LeBron in real life, it’s pretty obvious he was better than 2011 LBJ, and 2015 LeBron was very questionable in the regular season before the “trip to Miami”.

Debate lording is pretending the regular season where the team got historically better with the player in question is not actually historic because the slashline was not to your liking.

There is no serious argument for 2009 Wade against 2015 Lebron. RS or playoffs.

Why not regular season? Wade clears in basically all the important advanced stats, though I think you’re right LeBron may have hit higher heights in the 2nd half of the year.

EmpireFalls wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

EmpireFalls wrote:If you really wanted to be a debatelord and get the rhetoric right, I could see and accept arguments for 2011 LeBron over 2009 Wade in the regular season and 2015 LeBron over 2009 Wade in postseason. Actually, 2011 LeBron over 2009 Wade in the regular season only might not even require much rhetoric it may just be the correct take.

But, given how Wade alpha’d the 2011 Finals next to LeBron in real life, it’s pretty obvious he was better than 2011 LBJ, and 2015 LeBron was very questionable in the regular season before the “trip to Miami”.

Debate lording is pretending the regular season where the team got historically better with the player in question is not actually historic because the slashline was not to your liking.

There is no serious argument for 2009 Wade against 2015 Lebron. RS or playoffs.

Why not regular season? Wade clears in basically all the important advanced stats, though I think you’re right LeBron may have hit higher heights in the 2nd half of the year.

Because by data directly tied to what actually matters(WOWY, PBP lineup-ratings, on/off, pretty much any sourced RAPM), 2015 and 2015-2017 is one of the most valuable regular-seasons stretches ever from a player who has repeatedly out-impacted everyone from the last 50 years and who mantains that in surrounding years while also seeing his team winning near 60 without wade/kyrie over a 7-year period this happens to be a part of.

And whether or not his scoring was at its best(the primary cause of those advanced stats you are ciing dipping), Lebron retained a number of non-PER-esque-box-stat advantages over Wade like protecting the paint more, creating more effeciently, handling the ball more, and being a two-way floor-general for his team.

As is there are more predictive metrics which prefer 2015 Lebron(RPM, LEBRON, ect) and there are ininifte variants of similar "advanced stats" that could be drummed up to put Lebron much much higher(anything resembling a soccer box-score should do the trick).

Oh and Lebron was also on a much better regular season team that was still much better than Wade's in the playoffs despite teammate injuries and missed-time galore in a 3-year playoff stretch where Lebron lineups went up with or without his co-stars and his co-stars ratings only went up if they were with Lebron(down otherwise).

It's also hard to get more alpha than posting goat-turnover economy vs the league's best defense while shutting down the league's best offense in the nba finals with the best defensive teammate being a guy who was making the nuggets D worse a few months prior and your best spacer(jr) completely disappearing.

Wade is a better scorer who gets more steals as reflected in his per and bpm.
Lebron is better at nearly everything else and stayed better at all of that in 2015, sluggish or not.

I’d take Lebron

OhayoKD wrote:

TheGOATRises007 wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:Wade outright outplayed 2011 Lebron so that ones pretty obvious.

2015 Lebron is empirically one of the most valuable players ever so not much of a case for Wade there unless you are assuming an upper-limit on value without effecient scoring(Goat turnover-economy+all-time creation+all-time wing defense+high-volume scoring+two-way floor general can explain the massive impact signals and team performance otherwise)

What?

How exactly?

The how is Lebron handles the ball alot more than whoever someone might use usage/tov% to proclaim as clearly less turnover-prone. And then his turnovers plummeted to 11 percent while his ball-handling, playmaking, and scoring load shot up in the postseason. Then in the final against the best defense in the league with the offense essentially being synymous with Lebron, his tov% dropped to 8.5%.

That's the sort of **** that let's you take the 2015 warriors to 6 without your two best teammates even when you're not shooting so well.


The only season that clears it is in that regard is...2009 Lebron, who went 11% with far more of the offense running through him in the regular season, and then dropped that to 8-percent with even more of the offense running through him in the playoffs.

Very selective from you to just ignore the RS where his TOV economy is good, but not GOAT level.

Also the bold is somewhat hilarious.

TheGOATRises007 wrote:

OhayoKD wrote:

TheGOATRises007 wrote:
What?

How exactly?

The how is Lebron handles the ball alot more than whoever someone might use usage/tov% to proclaim as clearly less turnover-prone. And then his turnovers plummeted to 11 percent while his ball-handling, playmaking, and scoring load shot up in the postseason. Then in the final against the best defense in the league with the offense essentially being synymous with Lebron, his tov% dropped to 8.5%.

That's the sort of **** that let's you take the 2015 warriors to 6 without your two best teammates even when you're not shooting so well.


The only season that clears it is in that regard is...2009 Lebron, who went 11% with far more of the offense running through him in the regular season, and then dropped that to 8-percent with even more of the offense running through him in the playoffs.

Very selective from you to just ignore the RS where his TOV economy is good, but not GOAT level.

Also the bold is somewhat hilarious.

You ignoring how much players handle the ball is not me ignoring the RS. Usg%:tov% is not how you measure turnover economy.

The player you're probably thinking of went to 11.9 for the season when his role was closer to lebron's(in a peak year) and then went up to 12.2 in the playoffs. Over the stretch he played helio-lite, he was at 13%. Relying on teammates to handle the ball more for you does not mean you were less turnover-prone.

09 and 10 Wade is one of the best peaks that never got a chance to get a fair shot at greatness in the playoffs. Shame. I think he woulda been better than 06 and 11 easily.

09 Wade for sure