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Where would ‘03 T-Mac rank in todays league?

He would look like a (slightly) bigger and (slightly?) better Shai.

AEnigma wrote:He would look like a (slightly) bigger and (slightly?) better Shai.

Their playstyles are completely different with 03 TMac being the better player.

rate_ wrote:

AEnigma wrote:He would look like a (slightly) bigger and (slightly?) better Shai.

Their playstyles are completely different with 03 TMac being the better player.

No, completely different is trying to compare either to bigs. Or even trying to compare either to a guy like Luka. And McGrady is more of a playmaker than any wing today.

Top 5 at least.

I think behind Jokic, Embiid, Giannis and Luka.
In range with Shai and Kawhi.

I kind of view peaks as kind of a rolling 2 year thing so I don't get faked out by outlier shooting/ unsustainable effort/health/ role. And in that case I'd pick him over Shai and Kawhi. So he'd probably rank 5th.

AEnigma wrote:

rate_ wrote:

AEnigma wrote:He would look like a (slightly) bigger and (slightly?) better Shai.

Their playstyles are completely different with 03 TMac being the better player.

No, completely different is trying to compare either to bigs. Or even trying to compare either to a guy like Luka. And McGrady is more of a playmaker than any wing today.

Yes, TMac and Shai had similar roles offensively, but how they scored/operated offensively was completely different.

You need to learn what “completely” means. And also more consciously factor how McGrady’s scoring profile would evolve with increased space and pace.

Best player imo. If you disagree, I’m only hearing Jokic or Giannis due to their rebounding and overall impact on the game. Not Shai not Luka not any other perimeter.

Best scorer. Easily.

That was really the one outlier year for tmac . Top 5.

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The idea mcgrady would be better than luka is pretty funny

i mean defo below
jokic, giannis, luka, and embiid
then i think he's in the same tier with guys like kawhi, curry, kd, shai
in the 5-8 tier so i'll say top 10

JLei wrote:I kind of view peaks as kind of a rolling 2 year thing so I don't get faked out by outlier shooting/ unsustainable effort/health/ role. And in that case I'd pick him over Shai and Kawhi.

I'm surprised to see that as a boost to McGrady considering that neither his 2002 nor his 2004 season are as good as his 2003 season which is indeed a bit of an outlier. Shouldn't that weaken his case compared to some other players?

JLei wrote:I kind of view peaks as kind of a rolling 2 year thing so I don't get faked out by outlier shooting/ unsustainable effort/health/ role. And in that case I'd pick him over Shai and Kawhi. So he'd probably rank 5th.

Given the root concept of "peak," I don't see that making much sense as an evaluation mechanism. It could be an outlier level of play, but that doesn't matter because it's literally about it being the apex of the player's performance level, and the OP very particularly asks about a single season...

==

In any case, top 5-10 sounds about right, depending on the particulars. It's hard to get a full bead on McGrady because that 03 Orlando team was legendarily awful. ANY kind of spacing and team quality would improve his overall looks, reduce his effort level, etc. He was running out there with Mike Miller as his 2nd best player (for half the season) and then Pat Garrity, Darrell Armstrong, Jacque Vaughan, Andrew DeClerq and fat old Shawn Kemp. Jeryl Sasser was one of his main bench guys. Then they pulled the trade with Memphis for Pat Garrity and Drew Gooden. They were the 5th-fastest team in the league at 93.1 possessions per game... and in 2024, we're averaging 6 whole more possessions per game. 93.1 would be the slowest in the league by 3 full possessions per game in today's league. They were 3rd in the league at 19.4 3PA/g... average today is 35 and 30.7 is the lowest 3PA/g in the league. Average 3P% is 36.7% now and was 34.9% in 03, and Orlando shot 35.7%.

That was not a good team and it did not support McGrady on O to any meaningful extent.

So today, with more transition opportunities, better spacing by accident... he'd be looking even better. His scoring average might fluctuate by how much quality scoring talent he had around him, but he'd be up there with anyone, competing for the scoring title. His 3pt volume likely wouldn't change, he was already taking 6 per game, but with his size and athleticism, he'd be brutal to guard without a doubt. He was also an assassin with his mid-range and perimeter shot, and he was quite adept at the post game. He'd be feasting.

tsherkin wrote:

JLei wrote:I kind of view peaks as kind of a rolling 2 year thing so I don't get faked out by outlier shooting/ unsustainable effort/health/ role. And in that case I'd pick him over Shai and Kawhi. So he'd probably rank 5th.

Given the root concept of "peak," I don't see that making much sense as an evaluation mechanism. It could be an outlier level of play, but that doesn't matter because it's literally about it being the apex of the player's performance level, and the OP very particularly asks about a single season...

==

In any case, top 5-10 sounds about right, depending on the particulars. It's hard to get a full bead on McGrady because that 03 Orlando team was legendarily awful. ANY kind of spacing and team quality would improve his overall looks, reduce his effort level, etc. He was running out there with Mike Miller as his 2nd best player (for half the season) and then Pat Garrity, Darrell Armstrong, Jacque Vaughan, Andrew DeClerq and fat old Shawn Kemp. Jeryl Sasser was one of his main bench guys. Then they pulled the trade with Memphis for Pat Garrity and Drew Gooden. They were the 5th-fastest team in the league at 93.1 possessions per game... and in 2024, we're averaging 6 whole more possessions per game. 93.1 would be the slowest in the league by 3 full possessions per game in today's league. They were 3rd in the league at 19.4 3PA/g... average today is 35 and 30.7 is the lowest 3PA/g in the league. Average 3P% is 36.7% now and was 34.9% in 03, and Orlando shot 35.7%.

That was not a good team and it did not support McGrady on O to any meaningful extent.

So today, with more transition opportunities, better spacing by accident... he'd be looking even better. His scoring average might fluctuate by how much quality scoring talent he had around him, but he'd be up there with anyone, competing for the scoring title. His 3pt volume likely wouldn't change, he was already taking 6 per game, but with his size and athleticism, he'd be brutal to guard without a doubt. He was also an assassin with his mid-range and perimeter shot, and he was quite adept at the post game. He'd be feasting.

I agree with all of this. Imo that bumps him
up to #2 behind Jokic. These players today can travel and carry all they want in addition to pace and space. And they can’t be touched. That helps so much creating that extra bit of seperation, which turns the terrible shots he was already good at into practice shots. Nobody’s gonna stop that guy if he can straight up do what was considered cheating back in the day.

tsherkin wrote:

JLei wrote:I kind of view peaks as kind of a rolling 2 year thing so I don't get faked out by outlier shooting/ unsustainable effort/health/ role. And in that case I'd pick him over Shai and Kawhi. So he'd probably rank 5th.

Given the root concept of "peak," I don't see that making much sense as an evaluation mechanism. It could be an outlier level of play, but that doesn't matter because it's literally about it being the apex of the player's performance level, and the OP very particularly asks about a single season...

==

In any case, top 5-10 sounds about right, depending on the particulars. It's hard to get a full bead on McGrady because that 03 Orlando team was legendarily awful. ANY kind of spacing and team quality would improve his overall looks, reduce his effort level, etc. He was running out there with Mike Miller as his 2nd best player (for half the season) and then Pat Garrity, Darrell Armstrong, Jacque Vaughan, Andrew DeClerq and fat old Shawn Kemp. Jeryl Sasser was one of his main bench guys. Then they pulled the trade with Memphis for Pat Garrity and Drew Gooden. They were the 5th-fastest team in the league at 93.1 possessions per game... and in 2024, we're averaging 6 whole more possessions per game. 93.1 would be the slowest in the league by 3 full possessions per game in today's league. They were 3rd in the league at 19.4 3PA/g... average today is 35 and 30.7 is the lowest 3PA/g in the league. Average 3P% is 36.7% now and was 34.9% in 03, and Orlando shot 35.7%.

That was not a good team and it did not support McGrady on O to any meaningful extent.

So today, with more transition opportunities, better spacing by accident... he'd be looking even better. His scoring average might fluctuate by how much quality scoring talent he had around him, but he'd be up there with anyone, competing for the scoring title. His 3pt volume likely wouldn't change, he was already taking 6 per game, but with his size and athleticism, he'd be brutal to guard without a doubt. He was also an assassin with his mid-range and perimeter shot, and he was quite adept at the post game. He'd be feasting.

I guess for me it's an evaluation of a player at their "best" on average in the playoffs not specifically peaks.

I don't like 1 year peaks where it could be a player just shot flamethrowers out his ass for a year while they were never that good. McGrady is kind of those guys specifically talking 03. He was never a 39% 3 pt shooter in his career. You average out 02 and 03 and you still get an above average shooter on solid volume but not a god tier scorer who was 109 relative TS on 35% usage like he was in 03. If you can pull off that excellence over a decent 100+ game stretch including a playoff run I'm more inclined to believe that was your sustainable "best" level.

The-Power wrote:

JLei wrote:I kind of view peaks as kind of a rolling 2 year thing so I don't get faked out by outlier shooting/ unsustainable effort/health/ role. And in that case I'd pick him over Shai and Kawhi.

I'm surprised to see that as a boost to McGrady considering that neither his 2002 nor his 2004 season are as good as his 2003 season which is indeed a bit of an outlier. Shouldn't that weaken his case compared to some other players?

It does weaken his case. 03 McGrady on its own you could be talking just below Jokic and healthy Embiid. I was more so talking about how that criteria weakens Shai and Kawhi's case more than McGrady's. Shai there's less sample size and no playoff run to evaluate so you have to take that into account. Kawhi is health.

JLei wrote:
I guess for me it's an evaluation of a player at their "best" on average in the playoffs not specifically peaks.

Yeah but that's still a goalpost shift of the thread. If you weren't gonna answer the asked question because you don't feel it's valid, then why participate?

I hear you, it's entirely possible a player just catches a regular season heater. Mike James with Toronto is a good example, and McGrady (even accounting for health issues and stuff) was never anything like that level before or after.

But this thread is fairly specific and it's about 03 McGrady, not about 03 McGrady averaged with an adjacent season. Even if that means we're only looking at him in a single season instead of translating the concept of 03 McGrady across a prime stretch.

Dribble Handoff wrote:
I agree with all of this. Imo that bumps him
up to #2 behind Jokic. These players today can travel and carry all they want in addition to pace and space. And they can’t be touched. That helps so much creating that extra bit of seperation, which turns the terrible shots he was already good at into practice shots. Nobody’s gonna stop that guy if he can straight up do what was considered cheating back in the day.

I mean, Iverson was BS'g the carry/palming rules on most possessions even back in the late 90s, so it's not actually THAT much of an advantage with respect to ball-handling. But yeah, the pace, the spacing, there's lots of stuff opening things up for guys who are connecting from deep, for sure.

JLei wrote:

tsherkin wrote:

JLei wrote:I kind of view peaks as kind of a rolling 2 year thing so I don't get faked out by outlier shooting/ unsustainable effort/health/ role. And in that case I'd pick him over Shai and Kawhi. So he'd probably rank 5th.

Given the root concept of "peak," I don't see that making much sense as an evaluation mechanism. It could be an outlier level of play, but that doesn't matter because it's literally about it being the apex of the player's performance level, and the OP very particularly asks about a single season...

==

In any case, top 5-10 sounds about right, depending on the particulars. It's hard to get a full bead on McGrady because that 03 Orlando team was legendarily awful. ANY kind of spacing and team quality would improve his overall looks, reduce his effort level, etc. He was running out there with Mike Miller as his 2nd best player (for half the season) and then Pat Garrity, Darrell Armstrong, Jacque Vaughan, Andrew DeClerq and fat old Shawn Kemp. Jeryl Sasser was one of his main bench guys. Then they pulled the trade with Memphis for Pat Garrity and Drew Gooden. They were the 5th-fastest team in the league at 93.1 possessions per game... and in 2024, we're averaging 6 whole more possessions per game. 93.1 would be the slowest in the league by 3 full possessions per game in today's league. They were 3rd in the league at 19.4 3PA/g... average today is 35 and 30.7 is the lowest 3PA/g in the league. Average 3P% is 36.7% now and was 34.9% in 03, and Orlando shot 35.7%.

That was not a good team and it did not support McGrady on O to any meaningful extent.

So today, with more transition opportunities, better spacing by accident... he'd be looking even better. His scoring average might fluctuate by how much quality scoring talent he had around him, but he'd be up there with anyone, competing for the scoring title. His 3pt volume likely wouldn't change, he was already taking 6 per game, but with his size and athleticism, he'd be brutal to guard without a doubt. He was also an assassin with his mid-range and perimeter shot, and he was quite adept at the post game. He'd be feasting.

I guess for me it's an evaluation of a player at their "best" on average in the playoffs not specifically peaks.

I don't like 1 year peaks where it could be a player just shot flamethrowers out his ass for a year while they were never that good. McGrady is kind of those guys specifically talking 03. He was never a 39% 3 pt shooter in his career. You average out 02 and 03 and you still get an above average shooter on solid volume but not a god tier scorer who was 109 relative TS on 35% usage like he was in 03. If you can pull off that excellence over a decent 100+ game stretch including a playoff run I'm more inclined to believe that was your sustainable "best" level.

With regards to Mcgrady's 03 Season, the surrounding seasons have to be taken into account. Mcgrady would surely be Top 15 & presumptuously Top 10 today.

The shooting in that '03 Season is 100% a fluke, spearheaded by an abnormal white hot shooting stretch in March '03.

In the first 53 gms of the Season he shot 36.6% from 3 on 5.4 3PA per gm. In next 15 gms in March '03, Mcgrady shot 42.5% from 3 on 7.5 3PA per gm. In March '03 averages 36.5 PPG on +9% rTS in 15 gms, in all the remaining 57 gms of that Season he averaged 30 PPG on +2.4% rTS. Mcgrady has never had month in his career where he average 30 PPG on +5% rTS outside that 1 months.

'03 Mcgrady is like the higher end version of '06 Mike James, where in the last 25 gms of the '06 Raptors Season he averaged 25 PPG 7 APG on +5% rTS.

MiamiBulls wrote:With regards to Mcgrady's 03 Season, the surrounding seasons have to be taken into account.

No they don't. You can, if you're looking for a broader projection, but it's not necessary to go beyond single-season in a comparison which is devoted to a single season.