RealGM

Was getting in some discussions on Reddit and I was surprised that some people just took it as a matter of fact that Shaq was better than Steph. To me its not clear that Shaq is better. Steph's career plus-minus is better than Shaq's. In addition, Steph's box score stats might be better. Not sure that Shaq's peak was better than Curry's and its not clear Shaq beats Curry in terms of longevity. So what do you guys think? Who was better when taking into account peak and total career value?
Plus-Minus:https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1pGTFzq0eE85AP5wW8v8yFzRiJn_lfSCAzh7hd4czQI4/edit#gid=0
Box Score: https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/16jsveu/top_100_nba_players_since_1976_according_to/

Shaq does beat Curry for longevity imo. '93-'06 vs '13-present at reasonably high levels (both a bit injury prone).

Peak/prime I can see an argument either way, I'd have to sit down and think about it a bit more.

Box-score, both are impressive, but I think difficult to compare, very different roles.

So overall I still go Shaq, but the clearest edge to me is in the longevity department.

*Not a big fan of RAPM samples that large and generally think JE has overdone it with all the adjustments on that one.

Shaq is top-10 all-time, undebatably.
Curry to most is top-15 at the moment, to some top-20.

PistolPeteJR wrote:Shaq is top-10 all-time, undebatably.

Why?

I have Shaq very comfortably ahead on my all-time list.

Doesn’t Shaq have the best all time PO Offensive+ in a five year span?

It’s hard to judge Shaq because he was so dominant and could have easily gone more his way or the other. I do think it’s goes the other way when you had multiple guys literally jumper hanging and the refs let it go lol.

Shaq had rules changed

Whereas I do see Curry getting the benefit of illegal screens and the refs turning a blind eye. Now the league is comprised by that very same thing.

I really liked 2015, 2016 bar the end and 2022, didn’t like 2018 (dude went shot jacking in the finals) 2020 play in and last seasons end.

PistolPeteJR wrote:Shaq is top-10 all-time, undebatably.

This is easily a more controversial take than me saying Shai was probably the best player in the L this season through late-Jan or whenever I said it.

tsherkin wrote:

PistolPeteJR wrote:Shaq is top-10 all-time, undebatably.

Why?

Dumb peak that’s why. Could go as high as 2# if you really rate his offensive production in the playoffs coupled with high end volume over everything else imho.

And not to mention rule change and comfortably being the most domineering player of all time

Has the longevity edge too. He was basically All NBA right from the jump

DCasey91 wrote:Dumb peak that’s why. Could go as high as 2# if you really rate his offensive production in the playoffs coupled with high end volume over everything else imho.

And not to mention rule change and comfortably being the most domineering player of all time

Has the longevity edge too. He was basically All NBA right from the jump

Can't really agree that it makes him indisputably top 10, though it certainly makes a reasonable case for him.

tsherkin wrote:

DCasey91 wrote:Dumb peak that’s why. Could go as high as 2# if you really rate his offensive production in the playoffs coupled with high end volume over everything else imho.

And not to mention rule change and comfortably being the most domineering player of all time

Has the longevity edge too. He was basically All NBA right from the jump

Can't really agree that it makes him indisputably top 10, though it certainly makes a reasonable case for him.

What’s not to agree? Peak is peak the best players of all time playing at their absolute relative limit

Reasonable? Please there isn’t 10 NBA players that were better than Shaq.

He definitely has the most uncalled fouls of all time considering how much smaller players were getting away with.

It’s Shaq ffs

DCasey91 wrote:What’s not to agree?

Is that a serious question? Because obviously I can think of guys I would contest against Shaq as having top-10-worthy cases, lol.

You can have your opinion, and that's fine; Shaq has a reasonable case. The idea that there is no case for him not to be top 10 is non-sensical, though. The league is mature enough that there are a LOT of phenomenal players with crazy resumes, and Shaq was not without his own flaws.

Shaq ahead but again, Steph may have a couple of top 7 seasons left in the tank. Part of it for me is that I think playoff Shaq reached a higher level. It's close and when Steph is done I may have Shaq at like 8 and Steph at 9-11. Right now though I have him at about 13-14.

Shaq. His peak in the playoffs/finals are goat level.

Curry not so much.

tsherkin wrote:

DCasey91 wrote:What’s not to agree?

Is that a serious question? Because obviously I can think of guys I would contest against Shaq as having top-10-worthy cases, lol.

You can have your opinion, and that's fine; Shaq has a reasonable case. The idea that there is no case for him not to be top 10 is non-sensical, though. The league is mature enough that there are a LOT of phenomenal players with crazy resumes, and Shaq was not without his own flaws.

Name them then. More or 10

Remember there has to be 10 or more players to kick out Shaq

His case is pretty well documented

Rule change Disagree? Peak? Disagree, Resume? Disagree what’s not to agree on?

What part is nonsensical?

You saying Shaq has a reasonable case is your own opinion that’s fine same with mine. But in reality it’s different

Objectively he has a consensus top ten career in the general public view before hardcore investigation.

His peak is so high it’s unjustified to place him outside the top 10. Actually go into detail with it it wasn’t just one year it was one after the other

And longevity wise how many guys actually have 25/10 or 10+ seasons? Shaq has 10 of them it puts him with very distinct company.

DCasey91 wrote:What part is nonsensical?

The part where you find it impossible to justify the idea that someone could replace Shaq in the top 10. It's not an inarguable point.

His peak is so high it’s unjustified to place him outside the top 10.

That is opinion, not fact.

DCasey91 wrote:

Name them then. More or 10

Remember there has to be 10 or more players to kick out Shaq

His case is pretty well documented

Rule change Disagree? Peak? Disagree, Resume? Disagree what’s not to agree on?

What part is nonsensical?

You saying Shaq has a reasonable case is your own opinion that’s fine same with mine. But in reality it’s different

Objectively he has a consensus top ten career in the general public view before hardcore investigation.

His peak is so high it’s unjustified to place him outside the top 10. Actually go into detail with it it wasn’t just one year it was one after the other

And longevity wise how many guys actually have 25/10 or 10+ seasons? Shaq has 10 of them it puts him with very distinct company.

Worth noting(not that I agree with it) that in espn's last top 100(in like 2020) they had Shaq at 10 which is right there on the cusp. So that's just 1 spot out of the top 10 and before Curry being top 12 even had much traction. Normally I'd agree that Shaq almost has to be in that 7-10 range but him being at 11 or 12 isn't that absurd.

tsherkin wrote:

DCasey91 wrote:What part is nonsensical?

The part where you find it impossible to justify the idea that someone could replace Shaq in the top 10. It's not an inarguable point.

His peak is so high it’s unjustified to place him outside the top 10.

That is opinion, not fact.

No that’s your opinion that’s a fact.

I do find it impossible when his sustained peak is so damn high.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

DCasey91 wrote:

Name them then. More or 10

Remember there has to be 10 or more players to kick out Shaq

His case is pretty well documented

Rule change Disagree? Peak? Disagree, Resume? Disagree what’s not to agree on?

What part is nonsensical?

You saying Shaq has a reasonable case is your own opinion that’s fine same with mine. But in reality it’s different

Objectively he has a consensus top ten career in the general public view before hardcore investigation.

His peak is so high it’s unjustified to place him outside the top 10. Actually go into detail with it it wasn’t just one year it was one after the other

And longevity wise how many guys actually have 25/10 or 10+ seasons? Shaq has 10 of them it puts him with very distinct company.

Worth noting(not that I agree with it) that in espn's last top 100(in like 2020) they had Shaq at 10 which is right there on the cusp. So that's just 1 spot out of the top 10 and before Curry being top 12 even had much traction. Normally I'd agree that Shaq almost has to be in that 7-10 range but him being at 11 or 12 isn't that absurd.

Media can narrative base things we all know this. And ESPN and basketball in general can be greatly influenced by modern thinking.

I don’t find that in other sports basically anywhere else. Baseball, NHL, NFL, Football, Cricket you name it there’s huge respect irrespective of era of style of play.

What gets missed is his longevity. Dude has 14 All NBA seasons if you include rookie year (finished 7th MVP)

That’s actually quite good especially considering his size and dynamics.

Longevity + Peak + Uber Peak in Playoffs (most important) + accolades whole league and rule adjustment lol

Winning 3 straight putting up dumb stats its all there

DCasey91 wrote:Media can narrative base things we all know this. And ESPN and basketball in general can be greatly influenced by modern thinking.

I don’t find that in other sports basically anywhere else. Baseball, NHL, NFL, Football, Cricket you name it there’s huge respect irrespective of era of style of play.

What gets missed is his longevity. Dude has 14 All NBA seasons if you include rookie year (finished 7th MVP)

That’s actually quite good especially considering his size and dynamics.

Longevity + Peak + Uber Peak in Playoffs (most important) + accolades whole league and rule adjustment lol

Winning 3 straight putting up dumb stats its all there

He has his strengths but also his weaknesses(missed games, defensive effort, ft shooting, not really a great leader by top 20 standards). Like I said, I see his reasonable range as about 7-10 but with Curry and Jokic still active I don't consider him a lock for top 10 much longer and 11-12 now isn't crazy so long as someone can apply their criteria consistently and value playoff success to some degree. So I'd need to see the list and the criteria used but going from 10 to 11 isn't much.

Cavsfansince84 wrote:

DCasey91 wrote:Media can narrative base things we all know this. And ESPN and basketball in general can be greatly influenced by modern thinking.

I don’t find that in other sports basically anywhere else. Baseball, NHL, NFL, Football, Cricket you name it there’s huge respect irrespective of era of style of play.

What gets missed is his longevity. Dude has 14 All NBA seasons if you include rookie year (finished 7th MVP)

That’s actually quite good especially considering his size and dynamics.

Longevity + Peak + Uber Peak in Playoffs (most important) + accolades whole league and rule adjustment lol

Winning 3 straight putting up dumb stats its all there

He has his strengths but also his weaknesses(missed games, defensive effort, ft shooting, not really a great leader by top 20 standards). Like I said, I see his reasonable range as about 7-10 but with Curry and Jokic still active I don't consider him a lock for top 10 much longer and 11-12 now isn't crazy so long as someone can apply their criteria consistently and value playoff success to some degree. So I'd need to see the list and the criteria used but going from 10 to 11 isn't much.

In a game if you’re not exposing it or solving it you are doing it wrong. Shaq broke the game individually to the point where the whole league and rules had to change.

People don’t realise how much modern or old philosophy or old or modern tech and officiating plays a part in breaking a game especially in sports.

Liverpool took a 70’s national team blueprint to resounding success, Baseball’s shift has been around for yonks and caused a big change when it was fully adopted modern wise to the point rules changed, NFL rules changed for QB protection any sports that involves equipment make players better that’s logical etc etc. there’s heaps of examples

What I’m saying is this during that time period despite his flaws (every player has them) he really did break the game fundamentally. It gotten to the point where the majority of time he gets auto fouled as soon he touched it and the refs didn’t call squat

Imagine a player that gets fouled most of the time and didn’t actually get rewarded for it? It wasn’t one foul it was multiple guys hacking him.

You can actually watch it back how many times he gets hacked with zero calls

That’s the definition of a broken player.

On a ranking system from 1-10 in a game state he isn’t actually 1-10 the baseline is above that because there was literally nothing you could do when he’s that offensively dominant.

Curry is broken in a different sense. 3 >>> 2 but and I say this the illegality of it (Screens) to was overlooked for the results.

With Shaq just get ball to him ggs at his best.

Sports are business models at the end of the day

And NBA has like other sports overreached on offence

Ben Taylor has inadvertently pointed it out with disparity on Great O player vs Great D players today on winging.

Doesn’t he have the best 5 year PO stretch Offensive wise? It’s not hard to see why he has lol.