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How low could you reasonably argue Dirk on the all time list?

The lowest I can see him is probably in 22-25 range.

top 25 (lowest) only if you're way higher on ball-handling offensive players like Cp3, Nash, Wade (which I'm not).
Take for example Giannis, Embiid, maybe Durant: talent is there but it's not a given to have a career as good and long as Dirk's, checking all the boxes.

I think outside the top 20 is defensible but gets into a disregard for results that I see as unreasonable. 11 consecutive years of 50-game win seasons — seven to nine of which were without an all-NBA-level teammate — culminating in one of the more impressive titles in league history. I do not think twenty players can claim something comparable even before getting into the extra quality years of play beyond 2001-11.

Depends. Many of the Dirk threads devolve into arguments from people who think he was just a scorer. So if you honestly believe that he wasn't creating wide open high quality looks for teammates because his assists are low, if you believe he was a defensive liability, and you dismiss the value in his defensive rebounding(especially in the playoffs) because he didn't get offensive rebounds, I think you should be able to get him outside the top 40. Because that player isn't anything special.

However, if you look at the team results and the offensive results and understand how defenses struggled to defend any Dirk PNR action or Dirk in the high post with a live dribble, or even if you just look at 38+ Dirk playing in lineups with Barea,Harris, and Powell(and a 5th guy, most commonly Yogi) and blitzing teams to a plus 20 in b2b years because even at that point coaches and defenses were terrified of the guy....its pretty hard to get him outside the top 20 (for now, obviously there are some current guys coming and with a bullet).

He established a really high floor, with a championship level ceiling and over a really long time frame. Very few guys who have done that and of his contemporaries only Duncan and Lebron managed it(and more obvously). Kobe, KG, Nash, Wade, Pau etc couldn't match what he achieved as a franchise player. We shouldn't be quick to dismiss that.

Texas Chuck wrote:Depends. Many of the Dirk threads devolve into arguments from people who think he was just a scorer. So if you honestly believe that he wasn't creating wide open high quality looks for teammates because his assists are low, if you believe he was a defensive liability, and you dismiss the value in his defensive rebounding(especially in the playoffs) because he didn't get offensive rebounds, I think you should be able to get him outside the top 40. Because that player isn't anything special.

However, if you look at the team results and the offensive results and understand how defenses struggled to defend any Dirk PNR action or Dirk in the high post with a live dribble, or even if you just look at 38+ Dirk playing in lineups with Barea,Harris, and Powell(and a 5th guy, most commonly Yogi) and blitzing teams to a plus 20 in b2b years because even at that point coaches and defenses were terrified of the guy....its pretty hard to get him outside the top 20 (for now, obviously there are some current guys coming and with a bullet).

He established a really high floor, with a championship level ceiling and over a really long time frame. Very few guys who have done that and of his contemporaries only Duncan and Lebron managed it(and more obvously). Kobe, KG, Nash, Wade, Pau etc couldn't match what he achieved as a franchise player. We shouldn't be quick to dismiss that.

Just responding to the bolded. Can’t you say that about most high volume scorers who don’t have a lot of assists? I don’t remember Dirk (or the Mavs) being this great playmaker or anything

1993Playoffs wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:Depends. Many of the Dirk threads devolve into arguments from people who think he was just a scorer. So if you honestly believe that he wasn't creating wide open high quality looks for teammates because his assists are low, if you believe he was a defensive liability, and you dismiss the value in his defensive rebounding(especially in the playoffs) because he didn't get offensive rebounds, I think you should be able to get him outside the top 40. Because that player isn't anything special.

However, if you look at the team results and the offensive results and understand how defenses struggled to defend any Dirk PNR action or Dirk in the high post with a live dribble, or even if you just look at 38+ Dirk playing in lineups with Barea,Harris, and Powell(and a 5th guy, most commonly Yogi) and blitzing teams to a plus 20 in b2b years because even at that point coaches and defenses were terrified of the guy....its pretty hard to get him outside the top 20 (for now, obviously there are some current guys coming and with a bullet).

He established a really high floor, with a championship level ceiling and over a really long time frame. Very few guys who have done that and of his contemporaries only Duncan and Lebron managed it(and more obvously). Kobe, KG, Nash, Wade, Pau etc couldn't match what he achieved as a franchise player. We shouldn't be quick to dismiss that.

Just responding to the bolded. Can’t you say that about most high volume scorers who don’t have a lot of assists? I don’t remember Dirk (or the Mavs) being this great playmaker or anything

As Dirk's career went on, he became increasingly genius at making reads off the threat of his shot (his gravity). It wouldn't produce assists and it's fine if people don't want to call it playmaking, but it amounted to similar value. Dirk became so smart at reading the floor, knowing in advance how defenses would react to him in different situations, and making the read/decision that resulted in putting his team in the best position offensively. Rick Carlisle built the entire offense around Dirk as a decoy. They'd run screening action where Dirk wouldn't touch the ball, but the way defenses would overreact to Dirk would pristine looks for players like Jason Terry or JJ Barea.

Again, Dirk wasn't an amazing passer. He didn't have elite court vision or a deep bag of passes. Despite that, I still compare him a little to Jokic due to his ability to make the right read in the offense so consistently. Jokic has these games that feel as close to perfect as possible (I mean he literally shot 10-10 last night and had 15 assists to zero turnovers lol). Dirk had a little bit of that where if you zoom in on Dirk's every decision, it's like wow that was the exact right read to punish the defense. At his peak, he had Curry-like gravity and Jokic-like decision making. Add in a little playoff-Kawhi in that he has this synergy of size, strength, and shooting where his scoring is non-negotiable and you simply have one of the best sources of playoff offense to ever play in the NBA.

1993Playoffs wrote:Just responding to the bolded. Can’t you say that about most high volume scorers who don’t have a lot of assists? I don’t remember Dirk (or the Mavs) being this great playmaker or anything

I can't speak to every high volume scorer.

But here is what happened when Dirk was the screener--the big didn't switch, so Nash played 4 on 3 or JET shot wide open 18 footers or Barea was attacking the rim finishing or kicking out. It was wide open shot after wide open shot. All created by Dirk being in the action.

Or Dirk is in the high post. You can't single him with a wing because he shoots over him. Can't single him with a big, because he takes him to the rim. So you double, then Dirk kicks to the open guy, swing(maybe swing swing), wide open 3. Great shot all created by Dirk.

In neither case does this show up in a box score. So guys look at a Webber or a KG and assume they are creating more quality shots for teammates because of the assists, but the reality is Dirk was creating far better team offense and quality of shots for teammates because he scared defenses to death.

If you ever want a real understanding, go read contemporary game reports and look for opposing coach's quotes. The fear he put in them and the lack of answers they acknowledged they had.

And this went on even well past Dirk's prime. Look at the Mavs lineup data in Dirk's later years and see the groups with Dirk, Powell, Harris, Barea and any 5th guy. They are obliterating teams to the tune of plus 20 per 100. And why? Because even as an old man, teams won't leave Dirk.

So it requires not just going back and looking at BR.com and seeing low assists and thinking Dirk was just a scorer. Not even remotely close.

Probably around 18-20

I think its hard to pur hin Outside of top 20 right now but Maybe in 10 years it will ne hard to pit him in there

1993Playoffs wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:Depends. Many of the Dirk threads devolve into arguments from people who think he was just a scorer. So if you honestly believe that he wasn't creating wide open high quality looks for teammates because his assists are low, if you believe he was a defensive liability, and you dismiss the value in his defensive rebounding(especially in the playoffs) because he didn't get offensive rebounds, I think you should be able to get him outside the top 40. Because that player isn't anything special.

However, if you look at the team results and the offensive results and understand how defenses struggled to defend any Dirk PNR action or Dirk in the high post with a live dribble, or even if you just look at 38+ Dirk playing in lineups with Barea,Harris, and Powell(and a 5th guy, most commonly Yogi) and blitzing teams to a plus 20 in b2b years because even at that point coaches and defenses were terrified of the guy....its pretty hard to get him outside the top 20 (for now, obviously there are some current guys coming and with a bullet).

He established a really high floor, with a championship level ceiling and over a really long time frame. Very few guys who have done that and of his contemporaries only Duncan and Lebron managed it(and more obvously). Kobe, KG, Nash, Wade, Pau etc couldn't match what he achieved as a franchise player. We shouldn't be quick to dismiss that.

Just responding to the bolded. Can’t you say that about most high volume scorers who don’t have a lot of assists? I don’t remember Dirk (or the Mavs) being this great playmaker or anything

Watch Thinking Basketballs Dirk video. Shows it.

25

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Exactly as I have him, obviously.