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Who is the better defender in their prime

It's Kidd for longevity now.

Just want to add an aside, the years when Kobe got 1st team all defense over Kidd in the mid 2000s were absolute travesties and some of the worst case of 'superstar votes' ever.

I don't think longevity has anything to do with it when the question pertains who was/is better in their respective primes.

That said, I'd still give it to Kidd in light of minutes, as well as context (wrt offensive responsibilities).....

Caruso might be a marginally better defender on a per-minute basis (definitely not gonna die on that hill, but there's a case to be made; he's that good).
However, prime Kidd did what he did per minute (which included being co-anchor of some elite defenses) while playing 37-40 mpg AND while simultaneously shouldering a MUCH larger offensive burden than Caruso ever has.

Caruso has never played more than 28 mpg [yes, minutes are lower today, largely because the court is "bigger"], and with relatively minimal offensive expectations.
How good might Kidd have been defensively if he was afforded a role playing just ~30 mpg (i.e. fatigue [pacing oneself] is virtually a non-issue) with ONLY defense to focus his energy and attention upon?

trex_8063 wrote:I don't think longevity has anything to do with it when the question pertains who was/is better in their respective primes.

That said, I'd still give it to Kidd in light of minutes, as well as context (wrt offensive responsibilities).....

Caruso might be a marginally better defender on a per-minute basis (definitely not gonna die on that hill, but there's a case to be made; he's that good).
However, prime Kidd did what he did per minute (which included being co-anchor of some elite defenses) while playing 37-40 mpg AND while simultaneously shouldering a MUCH larger offensive burden than Caruso ever has.

Caruso has never played more than 28 mpg [yes, minutes are lower today, largely because the court is "bigger"], and with relatively minimal offensive expectations.
How good might Kidd have been defensively if he was afforded a role playing just ~30 mpg (i.e. fatigue [pacing oneself] is virtually a non-issue) with ONLY defense to focus his energy and attention upon?

That's a good point. And i'd argue "better". So I say Kidd, but not by much. Caruso is a savant. And yeah, longevity has nothing to do with a prime discussion, I don't think that's what OP meant at all.

Kidd doing it against much bigger, better players while playing huge minutes and having actual offensive responsibilities makes this kind of an odd comparison.

Kidd is just the better defender even if we ignore Caruso's ability to devote 100% of his energy to defense in shorter shifts on the court and not being tasked with guarding the Lebron's or KD's of the world that Kidd was doing even in his upper 30's.

Once we factor that stuff in this just isn't particularly close. Not to diminish that Caruso isn't a very good defender playing low minutes. He clearly is.

Texas Chuck wrote:Kidd doing it against much bigger, better players.....

Are you saying players were both bigger and better ["much" so, in both cases] ~20 years ago?

trex_8063 wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:Kidd doing it against much bigger, better players.....

Are you saying players were both bigger and better ["much" so, in both cases] ~20 years ago?

No.

I'm saying Kidd was used to defend big wings. Something Caruso is not regularly tasked with doing. And defending these big wings is the most important man to man assignment in either time period imo. And that's Caruso's strength-- man to man. As help defenders the edge only grows for Kidd.

I mean take just 38 year old Kidd. He took on Kobe, then KD, then Lebron(and Wade) at key moments of that title run. Caruso likely gets none of those assignments and if he does, he's physically overmatched in them.

Caruso is a very good man defender. Kidd was an elite one. And a more versatile one. And a better help defender. And was doing it against starters while playing much heavier minutes in longer stretches while carrying a much more significant offensive load. I can only imagine the defensive impact Kidd could have if he was told go defend this one style of player for 6 minutes, don't worry about the other end, and then we'll get you a blow. And largely do this off the bench. It's just completely different.

Texas Chuck wrote:

trex_8063 wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:Kidd doing it against much bigger, better players.....

Are you saying players were both bigger and better ["much" so, in both cases] ~20 years ago?

No.

I'm saying Kidd was used to defend big wings. Something Caruso is not regularly tasked with doing. And defending these big wings is the most important man to man assignment in either time period imo. And that's Caruso's strength-- man to man. As help defenders the edge only grows for Kidd.

I mean take just 38 year old Kidd. He took on Kobe, then KD, then Lebron(and Wade) at key moments of that title run. Caruso likely gets none of those assignments and if he does, he's physically overmatched in them.

I can't say for sure, since I don't watch enough of the Bulls. However, I think this might be an inaccurate statement.

I know it's just a highlight film, but it shows Caruso defending the stud wing and/or point-of-attack player repeatedly:


Possessions 1-3 (vs Phoenix)
1st possession: defending Kevin Durant (6'11", 240 lbs)
2nd poss: Devin Booker (6'6", 206 lbs), then Durant on transition play
3rd poss: Durant again

Possession 4 (vs Utah)
4: Colin Sexton (6'3", 190 lbs), then attacks John Collins (6'9", 235 lbs) after pass

Possession 5 (vs Lakers)
5: blocks Cam Reddish (6'8", 218 lbs) in transition

Possessions 6-7 (vs Philly)
6: hunts Tyrese Maxey in transition and blocks from behind
7: starts on Maxey (6'2", 200 lbs), then strips Embiid after the pass

Possession 8 (vs SA)
8: starts on Keldon Johnson (6'5", 220 lbs), ends up stripping Cedi Osman (6'7", 230 lbs fwiw) on the hand-off

Possession 9 (vs Charlotte)
9: Quick rotation in transition, takes charge by Miles Bridges (6'7", 225 lbs)

Possession 10 (vs New Orleans)
10: defending Brandon Ingram (6'8", 190 lbs [I think some of these weights haven't been updated in awhile, I'm SURE he weighs more than that now]) in the half-court

Possession 11 (vs Miami)
11: Defending Bam Adebayo (6'9", 255 lbs) in the half-court

Possession 12 (vs Atlanta)
Pressuring the outlet pass by Jalen Johnson (6'9", 220 lbs), he gets a steal

Possession 13-14 (vs Dallas)
13: defending Dante Exum (6'5", 214 lbs) full-court
14: his man is Tim Hardaway Jr. (6'5", 205 lbs), though has rotated down to Dereck Lively (7'1", 230 lbs) at start of play

Possession 15 (vs Orlando)
defending Cole Anthony (6'2", 185 lbs)

Possession 16-17 (vs Milwaukee)
Defending Kris Middleton (6'7", 222 lbs) both plays

Possession 18 (vs Denver)
defending Aaron Gordon (6'8", 235 lbs)

Possession 19 (vs Detroit)
defending Stanley Umuda (6'6", 210 lbs)


So we have him guarding everything from 1-5, 6'2" PG's one play, 6'9"-6'11" PF's and C's others. And there are a number of plays that aren't just the half-court stopping. Honestly his 4.6 Blk+Stl/100 figure [which is prime Dwyane Wade territory, and is higher than any year of Jason Kidd, btw] belies the notion that he's only a man-defender, and not much of a help defender.

I also want to point out that Caruso presently has a defensive on/off of -8.2.

That's better than Rudy Gobert......or Draymond Green.....or Joel Embiid.....or Giannis Antetokounmpo.......or Paul George [it's even better than PG13's '19 campaign]........or Victor Wembanyama for the godawful Spurs.

The only player I've [so far] found with a better defensive on/off this year is Brook Lopez [-9.1].

Caruso's an all-out beast on defense when he's on the court. I went with Kidd in the poll; but let's not make this out like it's a joke question. Caruso's a special defensive player.

thread close
don't disrespect J-Kidd like this

Texas Chuck wrote:

trex_8063 wrote:

Texas Chuck wrote:Kidd doing it against much bigger, better players.....

Are you saying players were both bigger and better ["much" so, in both cases] ~20 years ago?

No.

I'm saying Kidd was used to defend big wings. Something Caruso is not regularly tasked with doing. And defending these big wings is the most important man to man assignment in either time period imo. And that's Caruso's strength-- man to man. As help defenders the edge only grows for Kidd.

I mean take just 38 year old Kidd. He took on Kobe, then KD, then Lebron(and Wade) at key moments of that title run. Caruso likely gets none of those assignments and if he does, he's physically overmatched in them.

Caruso is a very good man defender. Kidd was an elite one. And a more versatile one. And a better help defender. And was doing it against starters while playing much heavier minutes in longer stretches while carrying a much more significant offensive load. I can only imagine the defensive impact Kidd could have if he was told go defend this one style of player for 6 minutes, don't worry about the other end, and then we'll get you a blow. And largely do this off the bench. It's just completely different.

Eh strongly disagree about Caruso not defending big players. He guarded Zion Williamson the previous game.

Kidd of course is an ATG defender. No disputing that but Caruso is still getting massively disrespected here. He's had a positive Defensive On/Off every single regular season and postseason of his career. A defensive stud in what must be the hardest era ever in which to play defense. I don't know who's better but Caruso is plausible.

I'll never forget Kidd's defense at age 38 against a 27 year old LeBron in the 2011 Finals. It was of course a team effort on LeBron and Kidd was only one of several defenders who they matched up on LeBron at the point of attack but during Kidd's turns he was fantastic.

trex_8063 wrote:I also want to point out that Caruso presently has a defensive on/off of -8.2.

That's better than Rudy Gobert......or Draymond Green.....or Joel Embiid.....or Giannis Antetokounmpo.......or Paul George [it's even better than PG13's '19 campaign]........or Victor Wembanyama for the godawful Spurs.

The only player I've [so far] found with a better defensive on/off this year is Brook Lopez [-9.1].

Caruso's an all-out beast on defense when he's on the court. I went with Kidd in the poll; but let's not make this out like it's a joke question. Caruso's a special defensive player.

I don't think it's a joke question. I think its an apples to oranges comparison though.

But I've been clear throughout -- Caruso is a very good defensive player. Me thinking he's not quite Jason Kidd shouldn't be seen as any kind of knock....

trex_8063 wrote:I also want to point out that Caruso presently has a defensive on/off of -8.2.

That's better than Rudy Gobert......or Draymond Green.....or Joel Embiid.....or Giannis Antetokounmpo.......or Paul George [it's even better than PG13's '19 campaign]........or Victor Wembanyama for the godawful Spurs.

The only player I've [so far] found with a better defensive on/off this year is Brook Lopez [-9.1].

Caruso's an all-out beast on defense when he's on the court. I went with Kidd in the poll; but let's not make this out like it's a joke question. Caruso's a special defensive player.

Unless you think he is a better defender than all of those guys, what is the point of using that stat?

Caruso is on a bad team right now so it's hard to tell. He's shining between bad Bulls ideas. He badly needs to get traded to a playoff team. I would say so far Kidd is the better defender because he has a better grasp of size and strength than Caruso. However, I'll give Caruso some credit because he works really hard and his on/off type numbers look like a star.

Don't think people would be having the same reaction if this was a Jason Kidd vs Tony Allen thread. The limited minutes will always be problematic when comparing stars to defensive role players but Caruso has arguably put up some of the best per possession defensive impact numbers from a perimeter player in the play by play era (and I say this as one of the biggest Tony Allen fan on this board). His defensive on/off numbers the last 7 years is all time level stuff:

2018: -5.7
2019: -7.1
2020: -5.3
2021: -4.9
2022: -8.8
2023: -5.7
2024: -8.7

Caruso has always been elite at forcing turnovers but now he has also added elite shot blocking for a guard (1.1 per game). Kidd with 50% more playing time never reached half that number. If we are talking overall careers, Kidd is my pick for GOAT defensive point guard but peaks on a per minute basis, Caruso wins this for me.

Also, I don't know where this idea that Caruso would be physically overmatched in matchups when Kidd didn't even comes from.



Caruso is 6'5 with a 36 inch vertical. It's not like he is Patrick Beverley size.

I generally felt Allen received low minutes because he had an extremely limited offensive game (much like Thybulle today, although Allen was smarter and could at least provide decent screening or even cuts when the opportunity presented itself). Caruso actually has a useful skillset on offence, even if it is mostly just hanging out on the perimetre and making smart connective passes — which to me makes it more of a question why his minutes are what they are.

I also think Allen is outright better defensively, so the comparison is hardly 1:1 anyway.

HeartBreakKid wrote:

trex_8063 wrote:I also want to point out that Caruso presently has a defensive on/off of -8.2.

That's better than Rudy Gobert......or Draymond Green.....or Joel Embiid.....or Giannis Antetokounmpo.......or Paul George [it's even better than PG13's '19 campaign]........or Victor Wembanyama for the godawful Spurs.

The only player I've [so far] found with a better defensive on/off this year is Brook Lopez [-9.1].

Caruso's an all-out beast on defense when he's on the court. I went with Kidd in the poll; but let's not make this out like it's a joke question. Caruso's a special defensive player.

Unless you think he is a better defender than all of those guys, what is the point of using that stat?

So no stat should be used to argue a general lean, ever, unless it represents EXACTLY the player hierarchy one has in mind. Is that it?

Texas Chuck wrote:I don't think it's a joke question. I think its an apples to oranges comparison though.

But I've been clear throughout -- Caruso is a very good defensive player. Me thinking he's not quite Jason Kidd shouldn't be seen as any kind of knock....

It's fine to think Kidd is better (I voted for him myself in the poll). But the reasons for feeling that way should be clear, or---more importantly---accurate/valid.

You have posited (and essentially re-stated above ["it's an apples to oranges comparison"]) that Kidd routinely guarded the bigger star wings or other lead scorer/point-of-attack opponents (and that Caruso didn't), while also stating that Caruso's main/only value was as a man defender and that he doesn't provide much value as a help defender.

Both of those things [wrt Caruso] are at least somewhat [if not fully] demonstrably untrue, as noted in prior post.

That's all I'm saying. It's fine to favour Kidd in this comparison. But if the reasons and assumptions that brought you to that conclusion are, in fact, almost entirely false..........well, idk; I just know I'm not comfortable arriving at the "right" answer for the all the wrong reasons.

trex_8063 wrote:
It's fine to think Kidd is better (I voted for him myself in the poll). But the reasons for feeling that way should be clear, or---more importantly---accurate/valid.

You have posited (and essentially re-stated above ["it's an apples to oranges comparison"]) that Kidd routinely guarded the bigger star wings or other lead scorer/point-of-attack opponents (and that Caruso didn't), while also stating that Caruso's main/only value was as a man defender and that he doesn't provide much value as a help defender.

Both of those things [wrt Caruso] are at least somewhat [if not fully] demonstrably untrue, as noted in prior post.

That's all I'm saying. It's fine to favour Kidd in this comparison. But if the reasons and assumptions that brought you to that conclusion are, in fact, almost entirely false..........well, idk; I just know I'm not comfortable arriving at the "right" answer for the all the wrong reasons.

I think you aren't reading everything I'm posting? And are reading things into my post I never said.

The reason its apples to oranges is not because of who they guard. But the role and minutes they play. Kidd is playing huge minutes against starters and has major offensive responsibilities. Caruso is (outside of this year) coming off the bench and regardless of the year has minimal offensive expectations.

And I never said Kidd had more POA responsibilities. Caruso obviously takes on the best guard on the other team when he's on the court the vast majority of the time. I said Kidd more regularly guarded bigger players. And I stand by that. Obviously we are in a PNR world so Caruso is going to end up cross-matched, but those aren't matchups his coach is seeking the way it was with Kidd. And its not just height/jumping, right? PJ Tucker was great against much taller players and he can't jump at all. Jrue regularly defends big wings great. Tony Allen on KD, etc... Caruso's teammate LaVine is the same size and can jump out of the gym. Doesn't help him much defensively.

Tony Allen is a much better comparison for Caruso in that regard.

Not sure one highlight video(Barea guards Lebron in the 2011 Finals on switches and Lebron doesn't score--nobody would use that to illustrate JJ's ability to defend big wings) makes me wrong on the other issues, but you are declaring me so and I don't think my position rests largely on those points so I'll concede it. Though blocks and steals don't tell us if they happen on or off ball. For instance Maxi Kleber gets a ton of his blocks on his own man rather than as a help defender. Citing his blocks in comparison to say Hassan Whiteside tells us next to nothing about how they are achieved, right? Gary Trent Jr gets a fair number of steals, but they are almost all through reckless gambles to the degree that Nurse kept benching him last year. Jrue gets a lot of his by taking the ball directly from his man. Again, I'll concede the point since you are so adament, but I don't think you've proved it. And I stand by this is a comparison of unequals.