Was Brook Lopez actually always a good defender, but stuck in bad situations?

[WestGOAT]

Or did Brook Lopez actually get better on defence?
- Is it simply effort; did limiting his offensive duties enable him to focus on defense?
- Did his defensive IQ improve?
- Can he only play in certain defensive schemes? (Still has big impact despite the new schemes implemented by Adrian Griffin).*

This season the Bucks, in non low-leverage (garbage?) minutes, allow 112 PTS per 100 possessions with Brook Lopez on the floor and are 123.3 PTS without him, so -11.34 :
https://www.pbpstats.com/on-off/nba/stat?Season=2023-24&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&TeamId=1610612749&Stat=PtsPer100PossOpponent&Leverage=Medium,High,VeryHigh

Not sure if you can find someone with more impact this season. Lillard seems come close though

He went from being regarded as a terrible big-man defender to basically anchoring, with Giannis, one of the best team defences over the past seasons. Early in his career the Nets were terrible or slighty-worse than average on defense while he played there (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/NJN/), and Lopez had pretty mediocore defensive +/-:

Code: Select all

 Season  DRtg Tm_ID
   2009   0.3   NJN
   2010   5.6   NJN
   2011   5.3   NJN
   2013  -2.7   BRK
   2015   1.6   BRK
   2016  -7.0   BRK
   2017  -1.0   BRK
   2018   3.5   LAL
   2019   0.2   MIL
   2020  -2.3   MIL
   2021   0.3   MIL
   2023  -8.5   MIL

2016 being the season with the highest +/- on defense with the Nets.. and Nets were 2nd last in Defence.


*Note it doesn't seem like his impact numbers are necessarily due to sharing the floor with Giannis:
https://www.pbpstats.com/lineup-subunits/nba?LineupId=1626171-201572-201950-203114-203507&TeamId=1610612749&Season=2023-24,2022-23,2021-22,2020-21,2019-20,2018-19&SeasonType=Regular%2BSeason&SubUnitSize=2

Team DRtg:
Brook Lopez, Giannis Antetokounmpo 107.23
Brook Lopez, Khris Middleton 108.37
Brook Lopez, Jrue Holiday 109.51

[Doctor MJ]

I think the biggest thing is that Brook is a defender with limitations and thus weaknesses. If you can let him play in a style that lets him use his strengths while shoring up his weaknesses, he can be great, but he can't do all the things.

[The Master]

Or did Brook Lopez actually get better on defence?
- Is it simply effort; did limiting his offensive duties enable him to focus on defense?
- Did his defensive IQ improve?
- Can he only play in certain defensive schemes? (Still has big impact despite the new schemes implemented by Adrian Griffin).*

All of these things are interwoven, I believe.

Brook got better within specific defensive scheme later in his career, but he also played on average teams without any meaningful coaching as a vocal point of offense, so it's hard to represent his development as conditioned by only Budenholzer and Bucks. In other words, he could've improved earlier under different coach on a different team within a different role, but he had never had any occasion to do so prior to signing with the Bucks in terms of playing for a really good team (two 1st round exits, once on a <0.500 team).

Rim protection stats:



And RAPTOR-metrics:



He's always had potential as a rim protector -- he was underrated as a defender (if someone thought he's negative impact-wise as a defender pre-Bucks) -- his development under Budenholzer and in Bucks' system was amazing, both in his impact and pure boxscore/defense dash numbers. And yeah, his defensive versatility is pretty limited, but he has still tools to adjust your defensive schemes to utilize Brook.

It's kind of like Hakeem and his passing in my eyes: he improved individually as a passer when Tomjanovich took HC duties and applied inside-outside offense for the Rockets, but Hakeem could've developed this area of his game earlier if he had had an opportunity to play within specific circumstances. Sometimes you just can't distinguish 'agent' from the 'structure'.

[Colbinii]

I always thought Lopez was a good defender in Brooklyn but was laughed at for being such a poor rebounder. This gets into a fundamental issues of many statistics, especially ones that emphasize Rebounding and have a strong correlation of Rebounding and Defense. The two are related to a degree, and rebounding is an often underrated part of impacting a basketball game, and Brook Lopez was a horrific rebounder for a size.

To put into perspective just how poor Lopez was as a rebounder, he ranked 73rd in DREB% in his all-star season of 2013. He is slotted around Ryan Anderson, Carmelo Anthony, J.R. Smith and Rudy Gay.

Lopez's strengths was his ability to position himself and utilize his size to deter driving lanes while having a knack for altering shots near the rim.

Lopez "re-invented" himself, though re-optimize is a more accurate description of Brook Lopez's metamorphosis as a player. After leaving Brooklyn in 2017, Budenholzer moved Lopez out of the paint as an archaic statue and put him on the perimeter offensively. Defensively, Budenholzer had a player in Giannis Antetokounmpo who was Mobile, Athletic and an excellent rebounder to pair with Loepz in the front-court. Giannis and Lopez formed a ying/yang aspect defensively as seamless fits while having an elite POA/Wing Defender put a finishing touch on an ATG Defense.

The Notable part of this defensive core was it's effectiveness in the Post-Season defensively. They boasted a 104.9 DTRG in the post-season from 2021-2013 in over 600 Minutes and a 109.9 DTRG Mark in the Regular-Season.

Lopez has clear limitations as a defensive piece which makes him lower than the Top Tier Defenders of this era [Gobert/Bam/Draymond/Giannis] but when you can lay into the strength of Lopez, you can put together an ATG defense with himself as a key-function of the defense.

[WestGOAT]

Or did Brook Lopez actually get better on defence?
- Is it simply effort; did limiting his offensive duties enable him to focus on defense?
- Did his defensive IQ improve?
- Can he only play in certain defensive schemes? (Still has big impact despite the new schemes implemented by Adrian Griffin).*

All of these things are interwoven, I believe.

Brook got better within specific defensive scheme later in his career, but he also played on average teams without any meaningful coaching as a vocal point of offense, so it's hard to represent his development as conditioned by only Budenholzer and Bucks. In other words, he could've improved earlier under different coach on a different team within a different role, but he had never had any occasion to do so prior to signing with the Bucks in terms of playing for a really good team (two 1st round exits, once on a <0.500 team).

Rim protection stats:



And RAPTOR-metrics:



He's always had potential as a rim protector -- he was underrated as a defender (if someone thought he's negative impact-wise as a defender pre-Bucks) -- his development under Budenholzer and in Bucks' system was amazing, both in his impact and pure boxscore/defense dash numbers. And yeah, his defensive versatility is pretty limited, but he has still tools to adjust your defensive schemes to utilize Brook.

It's kind of like Hakeem and his passing in my eyes: he improved individually as a passer when Tomjanovich took HC duties and applied inside-outside offense for the Rockets, but Hakeem could've developed this area of his game earlier if he had had an opportunity to play within specific circumstances. Sometimes you just can't distinguish 'agent' from the 'structure'.

Which resource did you use for the rim protection stats, does it allow to export the stats easily?

[The Master]

Which resource did you use for the rim protection stats, does it allow to export the stats easily?

I copied these stats from nba.com to Excel, with specific filters it's not that much time consuming.

https://www.nba.com/stats/players/defense-dash-lt6?CF=PLAYER_NAME*E*brook%20lopez&DateFrom=

I don't know if there's a smarter why to export this whole data from nba.com.

[TroubleS0me]

Lopez was also the NETS best player/ leading scorer for many seasons
It plays part too in his defensive efforts compared to being on the BUCKS

[penbeast0]

Also the general play style of the league has changed. Brook Lopez was always a tall, thin guy who could block shots (though he's improved at that skill unlike many players whose shot blocking slips as they get older and less jumpy). He was also, in addition to being a really poor defensive rebounder, a guy who didn't do a good job defending post scorers. You could get low position on him and outbody him; but in the modern NBA, there are far fewer players who specialize in post offense and a far greater reliance on slashing and outside shooting. So, it's not just defensive scheme that focuses more on Lopez's strength and doesn't play to his weaknesses, it's opposing offensive schemes as well.

[homecourtloss]

Also the general play style of the league has changed. Brook Lopez was always a tall, thin guy who could block shots (though he's improved at that skill unlike many players whose shot blocking slips as they get older and less jumpy). He was also, in addition to being a really poor defensive rebounder, a guy who didn't do a good job defending post scorers. You could get low position on him and outbody him; but in the modern NBA, there are far fewer players who specialize in post offense and a far greater reliance on slashing and outside shooting. So, it's not just defensive scheme that focuses more on Lopez's strength and doesn't play to his weaknesses, it's opposing offensive schemes as well.

Is the bolded really true or is it perception by people who were looking at the game with pre-analytics lenses?

2016: 71st percentile in points per possession (PPP) in the post allowed
2017: 78th percentile
2018: 94th percentile
2019: 78th percentile
2020: 29th percentile
2021: 27th percentile
2022: Not enough games played
2023: 39th percentile
2024: 85th percentile

[penbeast0]

Purely my memory, not based on analytics. It seems I am wrong.

[Laimbeer]

Also the general play style of the league has changed. Brook Lopez was always a tall, thin guy who could block shots (though he's improved at that skill unlike many players whose shot blocking slips as they get older and less jumpy). He was also, in addition to being a really poor defensive rebounder, a guy who didn't do a good job defending post scorers. You could get low position on him and outbody him; but in the modern NBA, there are far fewer players who specialize in post offense and a far greater reliance on slashing and outside shooting. So, it's not just defensive scheme that focuses more on Lopez's strength and doesn't play to his weaknesses, it's opposing offensive schemes as well.

Brook Lopez is not thin. I don't know what his challenges might be as a post defender but lack of bulk is not one of them

Sent from my Pixel 6 using RealGM mobile app

[Dr Positivity]

No, he was genuinely the complete opposite type of player on the Nets (20ppg C with mediocre D), even when he became the 2nd best offensive player on this team behind Deron at which point it would've been more valuable if he could have at least gotten to Pau Lakers level of D. I believe his impact on rebounding may have always been underrated as he was a good box out weak numbers guy, the opposite of someone like David Lee that leave guys to get boards. He would've been considered a non physically tough guy early on, it probably helped to get physically stronger over time in addition to it being less important to bang with Dwight type of guys nowadays.