Jokic GOAT Peak?

[Heej]

I'm seeing takes on the GB now along the lines of Jokic having the best peak ever and clearly being better than LeBron overall. Interested to see what PC Board thinks. Imo it seems Jokic is also in a very ideal situation with arguably the best coaching staff in the league (David Adelman is widely considered the best offensive assistant coach in basketball) and a really well put together supporting cast. As far as eye test goes he looks like a bigger Larry Bird to me imo which is certainly GOAT-esque.

P.S. I find it very neat that David Adelman's dad is Rick Adelman who is arguably the 2nd most influential offensive coach in NBA history after Mike D'Antoni due to aspects of Adelman's corner offense being found in every NBA playbook today. Seems genius level spatial reasoning runs in the family

[SNPA]

I'm seeing takes on the GB now along the lines of Jokic having the best peak ever and clearly being better than LeBron overall. Interested to see what PC Board thinks. Imo it seems Jokic is also in a very ideal situation with arguably the best coaching staff in the league (David Adelman is widely considered the best offensive assistant coach in basketball) and a really well put together supporting cast. As far as eye test goes he looks like a bigger Larry Bird to me imo which is certainly GOAT-esque.

P.S. I find it very neat that David Adelman's dad is Rick Adelman who is arguably the 2nd most influential offensive coach in NBA history after Mike D'Antoni due to aspects of Adelman's corner offense being found in every NBA playbook today. Seems genius level spatial reasoning runs in the family

Jokic does answer the question of what if a bigger Bird played in this era. Although, I think Bird in this era would be better.

The Adelman part is interesting. I wanted David to be on the Kings list of interviews a for head coach. Rick was a Princeton guy, although he tweaked it from what Coachie used to do at Princeton. Definitely Rick is among the great coaches. I think David gets a chance soon.

[AEnigma]

There is no serious case to have Jokic as a #2 peak above Lebron. The case above Lebron at any level is only marginally more serious and requires a stance that basically anything before the 2017 offensive expansion may as well not count.

But of course the General Board is by and large a completely unserious place.

[wegotthabeet]

Hoopshype did an article about greatess peak about a year ago.

They ranked LeBron’s peak 4th and Jokic’s 17th fwiw. Jokic is probably still in his prime but he’s no where near second or first. He’s a non factor defensively and simply put that hurts his case.

[OldSchoolNoBull]

Hoopshype did an article about greatess peak about a year ago.

They ranked LeBron’s peak 4th and Jokic’s 17th fwiw. Jokic is probably still in his prime but he’s no where near second or first. He’s a non factor defensively and simply put that hurts his case.

I know people say that, and maybe it's true, but FWIW in J.E.'s 1997-2024 RAPM, Jokic has a -2.2 DRAPM(negative is good). For reference, both LeBron and Tatum are at -2.8.

[70sFan]

If you value offense significantly higher than individual defense, then his case is reasonable. I don't do that and as such, I don't think he's the GOAT center peak, without trying to compare him to perimeter company.

[Rishkar]

If you value offense significantly higher than individual defense, then his case is reasonable. I don't do that and as such, I don't think he's the GOAT center peak, without trying to compare him to perimeter company.

Which centers do you have over him?

[Cavsfansince84]

I don't but part of bb and why repeated playoff success matters to me is that it can show how a player might not have weaknesses which show up if not lead to his team losing. Playing and having success against more teams/coaching staffs shows more resilience in a player's game imo. So far we've seen Jokic have one very dominant playoff run but I'd like to see more before I put him in a tier with the very best peaks of all time. Just like a player can look great in one series then in the next a matchup may force him to do things which put him out of his comfort zone. Having said that I don't think there's much teams can do about Jokic but maybe someone will be able to exploit his defense more.

[70sFan]

If you value offense significantly higher than individual defense, then his case is reasonable. I don't do that and as such, I don't think he's the GOAT center peak, without trying to compare him to perimeter company.

Which centers do you have over him?

Not sure if all of them are higher, but I'd at least consider:

Mikan
Russell
Wilt
Kareem
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan

Walton and Robinson are fringe, but probably not.

[Ian Scuffling]

Most people are prisoners of the moment. While Jokic's peak is incredibly high and he is without a doubt, at least to me, the best player in the league right now. Sustained excellence is important. Let's see how it literally plays out.

[lessthanjake]

Jokic is clearly squarely in the conversation for best offensive player ever (at least from a peak perspective, rather than a career-offensive-value perspective). And while people downplay his defense as a weakness, impact numbers generally say his defense is actually really good. And, of course, this is all validated with a championship that included a very dominant individual playoff run. So yeah, I think he’s absolutely up there amongst the GOAT peaks. To address opinions the OP referred to, I wouldn’t go so far as to say he’s “clearly” ahead of someone like LeBron (or a few of the other very top peak guys). But I do think he’s in that conversation and that it’s a tough lift to try to genuinely argue he’s not. For me, my eye test tells me he’s the best player I’ve ever seen. There’s some GOAT-peak candidates I never saw live, but I did watch the top few in the last Greatest Peaks project live, and I personally would take peak Jokic above those peaks. But there’s significant amounts of subjectivity and uncertainty at play, so I think there’s certainly room to disagree.

[scrabbarista]

1. 91 Jordan
2. 23 Jokic
3. 13 James

[Djoker]

He's up definitely there with the GOAT peaks. At this point, someone suggesting he's better than Kareem or Shaq wouldn't get any eyebrows from me. Obviously vs. Lebron as well but it's tougher to compare a big to a perimeter player.

That being said, I would like to see it for a few more years. Even though peak is a singular best level, the confidence level in someone's ability goes way up if they can maintain it.

[1993Playoffs]

I got him behind LeBron , MJ, Hakeem , Shaq, Kareem , etc

[rk2023]

With his consistency in VORP and Win-Shares, I don’t think we have seen a player as indispensable to his team (including any stretch of James or Jordan).

[VanWest82]

I have a hard time judging this stuff in the moment. I'll note that in 2013, Heat won 66 games in part because Lebron played almost 2900 mins and killed it on both ends of the floor. Jokic's career high in mins is 2500 and his teams have never won more than 54 games with an SRS best of +4; 2013 Heat were +7 and 09 Cavs were +8. If Jokic is really having a GOAT peak, why don't his teams win more?

Edit: using Shaq as a reference, 00 Lakers won 67 games and had a +8 SRS. Shaq played 3163 mins. I don't think it's at all clear that 23 Jokic is above 00 Shaq. I'm leaving Jordan out of this as there is zero case for it imo.

[Doctor MJ]

I'm seeing takes on the GB now along the lines of Jokic having the best peak ever and clearly being better than LeBron overall. Interested to see what PC Board thinks. Imo it seems Jokic is also in a very ideal situation with arguably the best coaching staff in the league (David Adelman is widely considered the best offensive assistant coach in basketball) and a really well put together supporting cast. As far as eye test goes he looks like a bigger Larry Bird to me imo which is certainly GOAT-esque.

P.S. I find it very neat that David Adelman's dad is Rick Adelman who is arguably the 2nd most influential offensive coach in NBA history after Mike D'Antoni due to aspects of Adelman's corner offense being found in every NBA playbook today. Seems genius level spatial reasoning runs in the family

So my own take I'll ground with this:

Whenever we next see a guy own an era for an extended period of time, he'll probably be the GOAT Peak so long as you aren't looking to adjust for era. We're still in the midst of a paradigm shift that has propelled the level of play in the NBA more dramatically than anything in basketball history other than the coming of the big man, so next time someone achieves this type of dominance, he'll probably be a better representation of how to be the best possible basketball player on a court with a 3-point line than we've ever seen before.

And yeah, Jokic might be that guy, but we'll see what happens.

What I think is clear is that Jokic has basically an optimal basketball brain, and an advantage there compared to all contemporaries, so it's mostly a question of how his physical limitations can be used against him. That first chip says great things, but now all guns will be trained on him come playoff time like never before, so we'll see what happens.

Re: best coaching staff in the league. Well, I think the thing they deserve the most credit for is recognizing what they have in Jokic, and learning to coach a team to optimally play around him when they've literally never done that before in their career. This isn't to knock Malone and his sideline team, but they didn't "make" Jokic the way, say, Kawhi or Giannis were developed by their respective teams.

Re: Bigger Bird. I think if Bird had Jokic's body and played in an era where there were so many adept 3-point shooters, but still developed his own innovative style from a young age, we might see him play exactly like Jokic. But while Jokic's size gives advantages, it also takes away. Jokic has never had the he's-everywhere factor that young Bird had.

Re: Adelman arguably 2nd most influential offensive coach in NBA history. That's be a fun conversation to have! but I think it's really hard to be confident about who deserves credit for innovations from the further past. For example, the Minneapolis Lakers developed a play called "J & G" in the 1940s to make use of the talents of their two stars (Jim Pollard & George Mikan) that is acknowledged to be a form of pick & roll, but back then the term either didn't exist, or were not widely known. So it's possible that the Lakers invented the pick & roll which is one of the most important innovations in modern basketball history...but I kinda doubt they were the first to do it, so how do you meaningfully allocate credit of influence for these sort of things?

[SHAQ32]

Before you say goat peak (IMO) you have to adjust his (and anybody else from this era) inflated stats

[OhayoKD]

1. 91 Jordan
2. 23 Jokic
3. 13 James

A good list going by certain made-up formulas I guess

Jokic is clearly squarely in the conversation for best offensive player ever (at least from a peak perspective, rather than a career-offensive-value perspective). And while people downplay his defense as a weakness, impact numbers generally say his defense is actually really good.

Are these the same sort of impact numbers he gets clobbered by a currently-still active player in?

[nate33]

I think it's a reasonably safe assumption that Jokic wins MVP this year. That'll give him 3 MVP's and 1 runner-up MVP in the last 4 years. That already puts him in rarified air. The only other guys in the modern era (post 1970) to do that are Kareem, Bird, Magic, Jordan, Shaq and Lebron.

If Jokic also wins a title this year, that puts him in even better position. That's a 4-year stretch with 3 MVP's, 1 runner-up MVP, and 2 titles. But what gives him an edge over most of the other greats is he would be doing this without an All-Star teammate.