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I think it's widely accepted here that Giannis has had the higher peak by people on this board but is it enough to overcome the longevity gap that Harden has on Giannis?

edgymnerch wrote:I think it's widely accepted here that Giannis has had the higher peak by people on this board but is it enough to overcome the longevity gap that Harden has on Giannis?

What longevity gap?

Harden is in his 15th season, played his first year in 09-10. He hasn't played 70 games since 2019. In 2017, he began his run of 20+ ppg seasons. So we have 8 meaningful seasons of him. He was pretty good in 2016 as well (enough to be 6MOY, in fact), but not the same.

Giannis played his first season in 13-14 (and also hasn't played 70 games since 2019). He's been rocking 20/10 or better for 8 seasons now.

Prime to prime, they're of comparable length. Harden's few extra seasons as a 6th man are only so relevant. AND Giannis is a repeat MVP, a DPOY, MIP, and he snuck in a title with a Finals MVP while putting down 35/13/5 on about 62% from the field against the Suns. Absolutely savaged them.

YMMV in terms of who to take, but that "longevity" difference isn't going to be a meaningful, deciding factor.

tsherkin wrote:

edgymnerch wrote:I think it's widely accepted here that Giannis has had the higher peak by people on this board but is it enough to overcome the longevity gap that Harden has on Giannis?

What longevity gap?

Harden is in his 15th season, played his first year in 09-10. He hasn't played 70 games since 2019. In 2017, he began his run of 20+ ppg seasons. So we have 8 meaningful seasons of him. He was pretty good in 2016 as well (enough to be 6MOY, in fact), but not the same.

Giannis played his first season in 13-14 (and also hasn't played 70 games since 2019). He's been rocking 20/10 or better for 8 seasons now.

Prime to prime, they're of comparable length. Harden's few extra seasons as a 6th man are only so relevant. AND Giannis is a repeat MVP, a DPOY, MIP, and he snuck in a title with a Finals MVP while putting down 35/13/5 on about 62% from the field against the Suns. Absolutely savaged them.

YMMV in terms of who to take, but that "longevity" difference isn't going to be a meaningful, deciding factor.

I think some of your years are a tad wrong...

Harden's 6MOY season (which I definitely view as meaningful longevity) occurred in 2012, not in 2016. Harden could have easily churned out a 20PPG season in 2012 if he weren't a 6th man, and if scoring wasn't at a lockdown-influenced nadir. He had an excellent season that should not be dismissed, IMO.

His first 20 point per game season occurred in 2013, not in 2017.

I don't dispute Giannis being a better player in their primes, or at least for the duration of their meaningful longevity, but Harden has been a meaningful player for 13 years now, even if he missed a chunk of time in a couple of his recent years and wasn't averaging 20PPG in two of them... and in the two that he didn't, he has still played great. His Win Shares + VORP both rank in the top 15 in the NBA for both of those seasons (not that these are definitive measures, but rather, a good indication that these seasons shouldn't be dismissed so easily).

Giannis fills up the box score as much as almost anybody, and yet Harden (who also fills up the box score, to be fair) has a VORP of 79.5 compared to 54.5 for Giannis. That's nearly 1.5x as much! I think that if one wants to make the argument that VORP overrates Harden more than it overrates Giannis, sure, but that's a big gap, especially since Giannis has been in the top 7 in VORP eight years in a row now.

This doesn't negate the idea that Giannis may have still accrued more career value than Harden, but I think saying they have "comparable" meaningful longevity is... not correct, IMO.

Now, if we're talking "top 5-MVP level" longevity only, then it might be a different story (and they'd probably be comparable in terms of "prolonged peak" longevity, or whatever you'd like to call it. However, in terms of seasons with meaningful longevity, I think Harden's got Giannis beat.

Harden has played 37k minutes in the RS and almost 6k minutes in the PS. Giannis has played a bit over 25k minutes in the RS and approaching 3k in the PS. Obviously there's a sizable longevity gap, that really cannot be disputed. And if you want to talk about Harden not hitting the ground running – well, neither did Giannis. Both had their ‘this guys could be special’ seasons in their 3rd year (Harden indeed being better) and their true breakout seasons as stars/All-Stars came in year 4 respectively.

I still think I'd have Harden higher than Giannis but I expect that to change in the not too distant future if Giannis can keep his current level or close to it for another maybe two seasons (depending also on what Harden does from here on out) while having some playoff success. But I'd have think about the current gap a bit more to pinpoint that. Another very strong playoff run from Giannis this year (and Harden not having one) may be enough to elevate Giannis if you do not emphasize longevity as much as some others do. I doubt it would be enough for me personally but in that case Giannis could perhaps leapfrog Harden as soon as the end of next season.

Bad Gatorade wrote:I think some of your years are a tad wrong...

Yep, got me. Rushed it while I was Alt+TAB'd out of a game, whoops! Was flipping back and forth between the two player pages and buggered it up.

I guess my root premise was there, but the actual number of years is completely off. Still, I think defensive value + offensive value at least makes a compelling argument, though the drastic difference in total years undercuts my original point.

Giannis just got swept out of the first round by the 8th seeded heat while harden battle with the warriors dynasty and pushed them to 7 games.

In what is giannis peak better. His defense is vastly overrated he guards the worst offensive player every possession

Vibrant_Hoops wrote:Giannis just got swept out of the first round by the 8th seeded heat while harden battle with the warriors dynasty and pushed them to 7 games.

In what is giannis peak better. His defense is vastly overrated he guards the worst offensive player every possession

I could cherrypick great Giannis series like the 2021 finals while bringing up a ton of Harden's failures too... postseason failures isn't something you'd wanna bring up when arguing FOR Harden. Fwiw, Giannis was injured in the series too, although it doesn't excuse his terrible chokejob in the 4th of G5

For now, I still have Harden comfortably ahead.

Giannis from 19/20 to 21/22 played at a much higher level than Harden has ever reached. After an injury-riddled playoffs last year, he’s at a higher level than Harden’s ever reached again. I’d have Giannis about 20 spots higher than Harden on my all-time list.

I'd take Giannis. He was comfortably better at his best, and Harden has a lot of warts on his resume, even compared to Giannis, who has some himself.

You have to compare Harden to someone in the same ballpark, like Kobe. Harden wins that comp, but loses by an embarassing degree to Giannis.

One_and_Done wrote:You have to compare Harden to someone in the same ballpark, like Kobe. Harden wins that comp, but loses by an embarassing degree to Giannis.

Hello one and done! This is a very interesting post, something I personally disagree with!

Kobe bean “the mamba” Bryant even around these parts is often viewed as, as a clear top 10 player, perhaps top 5 outside of this forum. Giannis may have been in track for that years ago but has somewhat stagnated since!

Harden on the other hand... I just don’t see it, the idea of him even lacing the mambas boots seems very funny!

One_and_Done wrote:You have to compare Harden to someone in the same ballpark, like Kobe. Harden wins that comp, but loses by an embarassing degree to Giannis.

How big is the gap between Harden and Bryant, where do each of them rank?

PooledSilver wrote:Kobe bean “the mamba” Bryant even around these parts is often viewed as, as a clear top 10 player, perhaps top 5 outside of this forum. Giannis may have been in track for that years ago but has somewhat stagnated since!

Top 5 is not a tenable position; anyone advancing that idea is basing their thoughts on popularity and aesthetics, not actual career achievements and the like.

Harden on the other hand... I just don’t see it, the idea of him even lacing the mambas boots seems very funny!

And this is also somewhat nonsensical, given how insane Harden was on offense and his own various achievements.

when the nba has to alter or make rule changes over 3 seperate szns for giannis because elite coaches like spo, kerr and budenholzer are constantly complaining to the league office about how difficult harden is too to guard, then maybe ill consider giannis over harden all-time

also we cant even compare accolades because of how polarizing harden is, if the nba media had the same intregrity of the nfl media a player like james harden would have at least 3 or 4 more all-nba selections and at worst an extra mvp. The media intentionally being biased againist harden has to factor into any head to head player comparison

tsherkin wrote:

PooledSilver wrote:Kobe bean “the mamba” Bryant even around these parts is often viewed as, as a clear top 10 player, perhaps top 5 outside of this forum. Giannis may have been in track for that years ago but has somewhat stagnated since!

Top 5 is not a tenable position; anyone advancing that idea is basing their thoughts on popularity and aesthetics, not actual career achievements and the like.

Harden on the other hand... I just don’t see it, the idea of him even lacing the mambas boots seems very funny!

And this is also somewhat nonsensical, given how insane Harden was on offense and his own various achievements.

Harden not having an argument all time against Kobe is nonsensical?

PooledSilver wrote:Harden not having an argument all time against Kobe is nonsensical?

Yes.

You can choose one over the other, sure, but writing him off entirely as not having an argument is nonsense.

tsherkin wrote:

PooledSilver wrote:Harden not having an argument all time against Kobe is nonsensical?

Yes.

You can choose one over the other, sure, but writing him off entirely as not having an argument is nonsense.

Hmm, I feel I, along with 99% of the planet, must disagree with this notion! Good day sir!

PooledSilver wrote:Hmm, I feel I, along with 99% of the planet, must disagree with this notion! Good day sir!

Right, but 99% of the planet constructs weak, fallacious, nonsense arguments, so you have yourself a good one

NBA4Lyfe wrote:when the nba has to alter or make rule changes over 3 seperate szns for giannis because elite coaches like spo, kerr and budenholzer are constantly complaining to the league office about how difficult harden is too to guard, then maybe ill consider giannis over harden all-time

also we cant even compare accolades because of how polarizing harden is, if the nba media had the same intregrity of the nfl media a player like james harden would have at least 3 or 4 more all-nba selections and at worst an extra mvp. The media intentionally being biased againist harden has to factor into any head to head player comparison

That also goes for what Harden's teams have done in the playoffs though. I mean the latest example is last season where despite two of his best playoff games he was terrible in the last two after they got a 3-2 lead and you also can't sweep away how bad Harden was thought of defensively for much of his prime. Harden just isn't a guy that gives you much confidence as your lead guy in the playoffs.