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Where would Peak Magic Johnson rank overall in todays league?

I only see Jokic having an argument over peak Magic in todays game

LascelleL wrote:I only see Jokic having an argument over peak Magic in todays game

Hard not to look at Embiid (when healthy), Giannis and Luka, at least.

Magic was really, really good and would thrive specifically in this environment... especially since he showed he could develop a 3 and was also an elite FT shooter.

Would be a pleasure watching him work in this environment. Would be interesting, though, to see how he did or didn't adapt to PnR play and the like, and whether we're talking early-career Magic or like 87-and-later Magic.

I think it’s really just Jokic who would be better. Embiid and Giannis would be arguable, but I think peak Magic would be better than them.

lessthanjake wrote:I think it’s really just Jokic who would be better. Embiid and Giannis would be arguable, but I think peak Magic would be better than them.

Offensively? Quite probably. But factoring in the other side of the ball makes it interesting. Would Magic really be THAT much better than those two? Possibly, but not guaranteed. Worth discussing, anyway.

tsherkin wrote:

lessthanjake wrote:I think it’s really just Jokic who would be better. Embiid and Giannis would be arguable, but I think peak Magic would be better than them.

Offensively? Quite probably. But factoring in the other side of the ball makes it interesting. Would Magic really be THAT much better than those two? Possibly, but not guaranteed. Worth discussing, anyway.

I guess I see Magic as being very close to Jokic’s level offensively (they’re both on the best-offensive-player-ever shortlist), so I’m inclined to think he’d be better than Embiid and Giannis despite lesser defense in much the same way Jokic is. I also think I’d trust Magic in the playoffs more than those two (especially Embiid). But no, I don’t think Magic would be THAT much better than Giannis and Embiid, because they’re really really good. So, as I said, I think they’d be arguable but I do think peak Magic would be better.

lessthanjake wrote:I guess I see Magic as being very close to Jokic’s level offensively (they’re both on the best-offensive-player-ever shortlist),

It's hard to tell, cross-era and all. What he did worked fantastically well in his own era, but there are some changes now, so adaptation becomes a key point. He certainly knew about driving an up-tempo offense, but still thrived in slower paces (league-low in the early 90s, IIRC). Post-up game, middie, 3, elite at drawing fouls. If that whole deal coupled to his playmaking translated today, he'd be a nightmare for sure.

But I think we both agree that it is worth the discussion, regardless of whom you put on top. And Magic's my favorite player ever, so I certainly won't die on a hill opposing him xD

Its Magic and Jokic then everyone else

imagine Magic in the post today w/ the shooting and spacing now and lack of contact allowed on defense. Theres no way to guard him

I would put him and Jokic at the top.

Magic with a 5 out offense would be devastating.

tsherkin wrote:

LascelleL wrote:I only see Jokic having an argument over peak Magic in todays game

Hard not to look at Embiid (when healthy), Giannis and Luka, at least.

Magic was really, really good and would thrive specifically in this environment... especially since he showed he could develop a 3 and was also an elite FT shooter.

Would be a pleasure watching him work in this environment. Would be interesting, though, to see how he did or didn't adapt to PnR play and the like, and whether we're talking early-career Magic or like 87-and-later Magic.

I think Magic would be perfectly fine on P&R offense. Few people realize that Magic was actually one of the few players in the late 1980s who attacked from P&Rs and he did that better than anyone at that time in my opinion.

Top 3, at worst. Especially with the fasination the new fan has with a more offensive minded 2-way player (65/35). What a match-up nightmare he would be, even moreso today. The tempo is right up his ally, the massive increase in 3-point shooting only gives him even more passing range & outlets, and he is LBJ size at the point guard position. His flash would have most annointing him as best in league, with current Jokic right there. The spacing though in today's game may even make Magic even more potent than what we saw in his day!

70sFan wrote:I think Magic would be perfectly fine on P&R offense. Few people realize that Magic was actually one of the few players in the late 1980s who attacked from P&Rs and he did that better than anyone at that time in my opinion.

I also think he would be fine, but it's worth noting because he didn't use PnR that much. He did a lot more playmkaing out of the post and in transition, post/re-post, etc. Old Magic was all about elbow/mid-post iso playmaking. It was visibly different than a modern-style PG, or even Stockton.

And frankly, the PnR you're talking is "taking a basic screen," which doesn't require any kind of special anything to do. You get a screen which clears you wide open, you take a shot or you drive. That was the kind of stuff we saw in LA. It didn't look anything like a contemporary PnR. And like, yeah, Magic would dribble wide on the perimeter, get a screen (inside the arc, mind) and then sure, he could hit the roll man or make his own offense out of the scramble and stuff. But that's something 13 year-olds do, and wasn't really what I'm talking about.

He thrived not with that as a spam set or foundation of his offense, and it's THE play in this environment. So my concern orbits the idea that his staple (particularly in the late 80s and early 90s) was iso post and playmaking out of that with a fairly free field of play to work with, and that isn't quite how defenses would handle him today. He had vision and he had technical passing and a post game and (certainly by the latter half of his career) a jumper, so he'd figure it out, I imagine, but it's a fundamentally different style of basketball compared to what he actually played, no matter the few proto pick-and-rolls he ran.

THAT said, he certainly knew how to exploit the guy in the corner, once LA started doing that, and of course Magic was all about split-second decisions and such, so it's probably not the biggest deal in the world. But it's still worth discussing. Also, it took Magic several years to get himself together, which is normal, but he also started at the age of 20, which is a little more modern a start than most in his day. One wonders how he'd handle going to a team lacking for scoring earlier on in his career, especially while his jumper was shakier.

Healthy Embiid isn't a real thing.

Top 3 with Jokic/Giannis. I'd lean towards Magic at the top.

Healthy Embiid--is that like a fire breathing dragon?

Either #1 or maybe #2 behind Jokic.

At some point soon, I think we might need to have a Magic vs. Luka discussion.

Since the all-star break:

37.4 points
10.0 rebounds
11.1 assists
1.6 steals
0.4 blocks
52.2% FG (25.6 FGA)
40.6% 3P (10.7 3PA)
86.6% FT (7.4 FTA)