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How does Patrick Ewing's 1989-90 peak season compare to Embiid's peak, likely 2022-23 and Jokic's peak, likely 2022-23?

Ewing seems to have scored higher for lower scoring era and his defense seems much better. His playoff performance was very good as well.

How does Ewing's peak compare also to alltime great Centers of the past? Is it much lower than Olajuwon, Shaq, Robinson, Kareem and Wilt' peaks?

Jokic surpassed him some time ago, but I still don't think that Embiid ever had a better full season than 1990 Ewing.

70sFan wrote:Jokic surpassed him some time ago, but I still don't think that Embiid ever had a better full season than 1990 Ewing.

Jokic's passing is certainly better than Ewing's but maybe Ewing's defense was that much better than Jokic that it sort of equalises it.

mulharric wrote:

70sFan wrote:Jokic surpassed him some time ago, but I still don't think that Embiid ever had a better full season than 1990 Ewing.

Jokic's passing is certainly better than Ewing's but maybe Ewing's defense was that much better than Jokic that it sort of equalises it.

There is such possibility, but I find it extremely unlikely, considering what we can extract from their impact signals.

mulharric wrote:

70sFan wrote:Jokic surpassed him some time ago, but I still don't think that Embiid ever had a better full season than 1990 Ewing.

Jokic's passing is certainly better than Ewing's but maybe Ewing's defense was that much better than Jokic that it sort of equalises it.

I would say the difference in passing is larger than defense, and that doesn't even take into account the massive difference as scorers.

The fact of the matter is, no matter how you slice it, Jokic has a Top 10-15 Peak of all-time. I would be hard-pressed to find any arguments for Ewing breaking into the Top 20. The players are different caliber--Jokic is flirting with a GOAT level peak while Ewing is a lower-end MVP.

My issue with Patrick Ewing is he never once finished top 3 in MVP voting. He was never considered the best player in the league and really wasn't ever considered the best center in the league. I have him as the 4th best center of the 90s behind Hakeem, Robinson, and Shaq. In terms of "bigs" i would also take Malone and Barkley ahead of him.

This basically puts Ewing as the 6th best big of the 90s.

Wigginstime wrote:My issue with Patrick Ewing is he never once finished top 3 in MVP voting. He was never considered the best player in the league and really wasn't ever considered the best center in the league. I have him as the 4th best center of the 90s behind Hakeem, Robinson, and Shaq. In terms of "bigs" i would also take Malone and Barkley ahead of him.

This basically puts Ewing as the 6th best big of the 90s.

The argument for Chuck over Ewing being the MVP? Because Ewing was about as much better on D as was Chuck on O, perhaps even more so because pre-injury Ewing wasn't a bad scorer at all and Chuck was a flagrant waste of skin on defense for a lot of his career, blocks notwithstanding.

Colbinii wrote:

mulharric wrote:

70sFan wrote:Jokic surpassed him some time ago, but I still don't think that Embiid ever had a better full season than 1990 Ewing.

Jokic's passing is certainly better than Ewing's but maybe Ewing's defense was that much better than Jokic that it sort of equalises it.

I would say the difference in passing is larger than defense, and that doesn't even take into account the massive difference as scorers.

The fact of the matter is, no matter how you slice it, Jokic has a Top 10-15 Peak of all-time. I would be hard-pressed to find any arguments for Ewing breaking into the Top 20. The players are different caliber--Jokic is flirting with a GOAT level peak while Ewing is a lower-end MVP.

Their scoring numbers look similar, can't really see big difference their. So many years apart and very different times it's hard to relate them. Jokic does score a heap in such a perimeter type game nowadays.

tsherkin wrote:

Wigginstime wrote:My issue with Patrick Ewing is he never once finished top 3 in MVP voting. He was never considered the best player in the league and really wasn't ever considered the best center in the league. I have him as the 4th best center of the 90s behind Hakeem, Robinson, and Shaq. In terms of "bigs" i would also take Malone and Barkley ahead of him.

This basically puts Ewing as the 6th best big of the 90s.

The argument for Chuck over Ewing being the MVP? Because Ewing was about as much better on D as was Chuck on O, perhaps even more so because pre-injury Ewing wasn't a bad scorer at all and Chuck was a flagrant waste of skin on defense for a lot of his career, blocks notwithstanding.

There were alot of great players those years to be fair. Jordan and Magic were winning more and so were placed ahead of Ewing. Depends how defense is valued but Ewing was among the best on that end.

mulharric wrote:There were alot of great players those years to be fair. Jordan and Magic were winning more and so were placed ahead of Ewing. Depends how defense is valued but Ewing was among the best on that end.

Ewing was very good on defense. 1990 was also by far his best scoring season. He was a trash passer, he traveled like every time he faced up and he was considerably worse in the playoffs compared to the RS, but he was still a very good player.

His trouble was very much that there were much better players in the league his whole career. There's no sensible argument for Ewing over Robinson after that season (it was Robinson's rookie year, so that one makes sense). Nor over Jordan. And in 1990, no argument over Magic. Karl Malone was a titan. And of course Barkley was in the middle of a half-decade leading the league in FG%, smashing the glass and dunking on everyone's faces, so it's not surprising he got more love than Ewing in that vote (and again in 93).

But at the same time, Ewing still posted 28.6 ppg on 55.1% FG (59.9%, +6.2% rTS) against Chuck's 25.2 ppg on 60% FG (66.1%, league-high), and then there's that pesky defense.

So he had an outstanding season as a scorer AND obliterated Chuck as a defender.

Relative to eras, I still like Ewing 1990. I would argue he was just as ahead of the curve as a shooter as Jokic and Embiid, relative to eras. He shot 78% from the line on 8 attempts that season; which centers were shooting that good back then?

Plus he's top 3 modern-day defensive centers.

SHAQ32 wrote:Relative to eras, I still like Ewing 1990. I would argue he was just as ahead of the curve as a shooter as Jokic and Embiid, relative to eras. He shot 78% from the line on 8 attempts that season; which centers were shooting that good back then?

Olajuwon. D Rob would get there and was shooting 73% even as a rookie. Mourning shot 78% as a rookie. Rik Smits. Brad Daughtery was there in 94 and 95. A bunch of them.

Plus he's top 3 modern-day defensive centers.

Mmmm. That's debatable. Olajuwon, Robinson, Duncan, Dikembe Mutombo, Ben Wallace... there's a lot of top-end competition for defensive value at the center position.

Looking at the basic metrics

89-90 Ewing was 3.7 OBPM, 1.8 DBPM, 5.5 BPM, 6.0 VORP

Embiid was on pace for a better season, but injuries.

So let's say 22-23 Embiid. 6.8 OBPM, 2.3 DBPM, 9.2 BPM, 6.4 VORP. Big decline in playoffs.

Jokic 22-23. 11.2, 3.8, 14.9, .308. 8.5 OBPM, 4.5 DBPM, 13.0 BPM, 8.8 VORP. Similar numbers in the playoffs.


Eye test, Ewing was the best defensively, worst offensively. Embiid's peak D can get to Ewing's level, but he was gassed / doing too much on offense, to have that level continuously.

Jokic offense clearly is the best of the three, and it's so good, along with his at least passable defense (understanding positioning, good hands), gets him the top spot of these 3 comfortably.

Peak Ewing can match or even slightly exceed peak Embiid but neither are that close to Jokic's peak.

SHAQ32 wrote:Relative to eras, I still like Ewing 1990. I would argue he was just as ahead of the curve as a shooter as Jokic and Embiid, relative to eras. He shot 78% from the line on 8 attempts that season; which centers were shooting that good back then?

Plus he's top 3 modern-day defensive centers.

There were better shooting centers than Ewing back then. Sikma and Laimbeer are just two quick ones I came up with.

SHAQ32 wrote:Relative to eras, I still like Ewing 1990. I would argue he was just as ahead of the curve as a shooter as Jokic and Embiid, relative to eras. He shot 78% from the line on 8 attempts that season; which centers were shooting that good back then?

Plus he's top 3 modern-day defensive centers.

Lots of Centers. In 1990 alone: Sikma (89%), Laimbeer (85%), Shayes (85%), Gminski (82%), Cartwright (81%), Smits (81%), Moses (78%), Bowie (78%)

You can say "Just ahead of the curve", but Jokic is world's better than Ewing as a shooter.

SHAQ32 wrote:Relative to eras, I still like Ewing 1990. I would argue he was just as ahead of the curve as a shooter as Jokic and Embiid, relative to eras. He shot 78% from the line on 8 attempts that season; which centers were shooting that good back then?

Plus he's top 3 modern-day defensive centers.

Not even in the same stratosphere. Embiid and Jokic are amazing shooters from everywhere on the floor.

Clearly worse than Jokic but probably slightly better than Embiid (mostly because of playoffs I'd say). Regular season wise they both clear him pretty clearly imo. Embiid's scoring in the regular season the last couple years has been at such an insane level that it negates the difference in defense which I do think is a pretty significant advantage for Ewing. Jokic is just at a different level than both guys.

Also just realized this but Ewing never finishing higher than 5th in DPOY voting is just absolutely nuts. He didn't even get any votes in '92 and never appeared on a ballot period after '93.

RCM88x wrote:Clearly worse than Jokic but probably slightly better than Embiid (mostly because of playoffs I'd say). Regular season wise they both clear him pretty clearly imo. Embiid's scoring in the regular season the last couple years has been at such an insane level that it negates the difference in defense which I do think is a pretty significant advantage for Ewing. Jokic is just at a different level than both guys.

Also just realized this but Ewing never finishing higher than 5th in DPOY voting is just absolutely nuts. He didn't even get any votes in '92 and never appeared on a ballot period after '93.

hilarious
they thought Rodman,Pippen,Dumars,Jordan, Payton were all better than Ewing defensively. Simply a dumb primitive understanding of the game.

AdagioPace wrote:

RCM88x wrote:Clearly worse than Jokic but probably slightly better than Embiid (mostly because of playoffs I'd say). Regular season wise they both clear him pretty clearly imo. Embiid's scoring in the regular season the last couple years has been at such an insane level that it negates the difference in defense which I do think is a pretty significant advantage for Ewing. Jokic is just at a different level than both guys.

Also just realized this but Ewing never finishing higher than 5th in DPOY voting is just absolutely nuts. He didn't even get any votes in '92 and never appeared on a ballot period after '93.

hilarious
they thought Rodman,Pippen,Dumars,Jordan, Payton were all better than Ewing defensively. Simply a dumb primitive understanding of the game.

Also crazy is he only made three All-Defensive teams (granted it was position limited), all 2nd team. In, '88 with a 5th place DOPY finish, '89 where he finished 6th in DPOY, and '92 when he didn't even make any DPOY ballot.