Who was better in 2021?? Giannis or Jokic

[Narigo]

Who was the best player in 2021?

[rk2023]

Giannis imo, winning bias aside. I don't think Jokic had reached *that* caliber of player just yet - though he still would have been my MVP in the regular season.

[1993Playoffs]

Giannis imo, winning bias aside. I don't think Jokic had reached *that* caliber of player just yet - though he still would have been my MVP in the regular season.

Yup which is why is scoff at the Jokic GOAT Peak talks He had a year in his prime where he won the mvp but I’d probably take Giannis (that’s the last year you can say he’s better imo). I don’t think Jokic 2022 is quite on that level either.

2023 and now yeah

[rk2023]

Giannis imo, winning bias aside. I don't think Jokic had reached *that* caliber of player just yet - though he still would have been my MVP in the regular season.

Yup which is why is scoff at the Jokic GOAT Peak talks He had a year in his prime where he won the mvp but I’d probably take Giannis (that’s the last year you can say he’s better imo). I don’t think Jokic 2022 is quite on that level either.

2023 and now yeah

Yeah, I don't find much data past the box score indicating Jokic is having a 2023-24 RS that competes with some of the top prime seasons of GOAT candidates (same with last season, though Denver looked incredibly good in the playoffs).

[TheGOATRises007]

I thought Giannis went up a level in the playoffs(during the Nets series) when the Bucks started using him as an off-ball threat through him screening.

I wish he kept doing that instead of focusing on being an on-ball creator. That was the best Giannis had played IMO.

As for the question: I'd pick Giannis in 2021.

[lessthanjake]

I think it was genuinely very close that year. But I think Jokic was the superior player even then.

The thing that really gets me here with the Bucks 2021 title run is the Nets series—which I think was very illustrative of Giannis’s strengths and limitations. Obviously, a healthy Nets team would’ve likely beaten the Bucks, but that’s not the most interesting thing to me. What I found really baffling at the time was why the Bucks struggled so much to score in that series. The Nets were a bad defensive team, and yet the Bucks only managed to score 105.0 points per 100 possessions (compared to the 113.8 that the Nets gave up on average in the regular season, and 118.3 they’d given up in the first round of the playoffs). It was a genuinely awful offensive display that the Bucks were extremely lucky to survive. Of course, if we were inclined to take a charitable view of Giannis’s culpability in that, we’d note that Giannis scored a lot of points at a pretty decent efficiency (31.9 points per game on 59.2% TS) and that Jrue Holiday probably shot awfully in the series in significant part from expending so much energy defending Durant. But still, I think it was the type of awful team offense (despite having a talented team) that was in part reflective of Giannis’s notable limitations as an offensive engine. It often happens in the playoffs at some point (though, ironically, this may have actually been the most egregious example), and that year the Bucks were just lucky that the opponent’s injuries were barely enough to allow them to win the series anyways. Of course, one could point out that the Nuggets definitely weren’t good offensively (or defensively) in their series loss to the Suns that year. But I think the difference is that Jokic’s supporting cast was awful and couldn’t be expected to perform well against a really good team, while the Giannis’s supporting cast was good and could be expected to do so. Ultimately, there has to be some uncertainty here, because we really don’t know what Jokic would’ve been capable of with a competent team. So, while I’m inclined to think Jokic was already better, I think it’s close and I don’t have complete confidence that it was Jokic.

[Special_Puppy]

Jokic passed Giannis (and everyone else) in terms of advanced stats in 2021

[lessthanjake]

Giannis imo, winning bias aside. I don't think Jokic had reached *that* caliber of player just yet - though he still would have been my MVP in the regular season.

Yup which is why is scoff at the Jokic GOAT Peak talks He had a year in his prime where he won the mvp but I’d probably take Giannis (that’s the last year you can say he’s better imo). I don’t think Jokic 2022 is quite on that level either.

2023 and now yeah

Yeah, I don't find much data past the box score indicating Jokic is having a 2023-24 RS that competes with some of the top prime seasons of GOAT candidates (same with last season, though Denver looked incredibly good in the playoffs).

What “data past the box score” is there that you’re basing this view on? Box score is a big chunk of the data picture. And once you get beyond that, it’s about impact data, and Jokic is sitting there with a +18.9 on-off this season. And, since you mention last season, it was +21.9 that season. Granted, the on-off is a bit inflated by the fact that the Nuggets don’t stagger their best players as much as most other teams. But still, if that data is not indicative of competing with top prime seasons of GOAT candidates, then I’m not sure what you’d want the “data past the box score” to look like. You mentioned “Denver looked incredibly good in the playoffs,” so maybe you’re judging based on how great his team performed overall? I guess there’s perhaps validity to that since the Nuggets aren’t out there winning 60+ games, though obviously it’s a team game and Denver definitely doesn’t have some historically talented team and still managed to win a title only losing 4 playoff games.

Overall, to take this back to the topic of the thread so that I’m not derailing things, I guess this seems like an argument that could be made about Jokic’s 2020-2021 season (where the impact data wasn’t quite so great but the box score numbers were), but not the more recent seasons.

[The Master]

I think it was genuinely very close that year. But I think Jokic was the superior player even then.

The thing that really gets me here with the Bucks 2021 title run is the Nets series—which I think was very illustrative of Giannis’s strengths and limitations. Obviously, a healthy Nets team would’ve likely beaten the Bucks, but that’s not the most interesting thing to me. What I found really baffling at the time was why the Bucks struggled so much to score in that series. The Nets were a bad defensive team, and yet the Bucks only managed to score 105.0 points per 100 possessions (compared to the 113.8 that the Nets gave up on average in the regular season, and 118.3 they’d given up in the first round of the playoffs). It was a genuinely awful offensive display that the Bucks were extremely lucky to survive. Of course, if we were inclined to take a charitable view of Giannis’s culpability in that, we’d note that Giannis scored a lot of points at a pretty decent efficiency (31.9 points per game on 59.2% TS) and that Jrue Holiday probably shot awfully in the series in significant part from expending so much energy defending Durant. But still, I think it was the type of awful team offense (despite having a talented team) that was in part reflective of Giannis’s notable limitations as an offensive engine. It often happens in the playoffs at some point (though, ironically, this may have actually been the most egregious example), and that year the Bucks were just lucky that the opponent’s injuries were barely enough to allow them to win the series anyways. Of course, one could point out that the Nuggets definitely weren’t good offensively (or defensively) in their series loss to the Suns that year. But I think the difference is that Jokic’s supporting cast was awful and couldn’t be expected to perform well against a really good team, while the Giannis’s supporting cast was good and could be expected to do so. Ultimately, there has to be some uncertainty here, because we really don’t know what Jokic would’ve been capable of with a competent team. So, while I’m inclined to think Jokic was already better, I think it’s close and I don’t have complete confidence that it was Jokic.

Yeah, that would be my take as well if not your elaboration.

Giannis had amazing elimination games in that series against Nets and amazing finals vs Suns, but the fact Bucks were on the brink of elimination with shorthanded Nets (basically an inch away), besides shooting slump and Bud's questionable decision making, shows also limitations of Giannis as a player. Jokic had already made at that time impressive trip to the WCF a year earlier and had his first peak year in regular season, so I'm comfortable with taking him (especially if you assume decently built team around him like Bucks talent-wise and fit-wise were built around Giannis at that time).

We've never seen Bucks being in the playoffs close to the Nuggets '20 level offensively - Jokic was individually a tier better player next year - Bucks talent wise were still good enough to be serviceable at the defensive end with Jokic and PF-equivalent of Brook.

[OhayoKD]

---

[OhayoKD]

I think it was genuinely very close that year. But I think Jokic was the superior player even then.

The thing that really gets me here with the Bucks 2021 title run is the Nets series—which I think was very illustrative of Giannis’s strengths and limitations. Obviously, a healthy Nets team would’ve likely beaten the Bucks, but that’s not the most interesting thing to me. What I found really baffling at the time was why the Bucks struggled so much to score in that series. The Nets were a bad defensive team, and yet the Bucks only managed to score 105.0 points per 100 possessions (compared to the 113.8 that the Nets gave up on average in the regular season, and 118.3 they’d given up in the first round of the playoffs). It was a genuinely awful offensive display that the Bucks were extremely lucky to survive. Of course, if we were inclined to take a charitable view of Giannis’s culpability in that, we’d note that Giannis scored a lot of points at a pretty decent efficiency (31.9 points per game on 59.2% TS) and that Jrue Holiday probably shot awfully in the series in significant part from expending so much energy defending Durant. But still, I think it was the type of awful team offense (despite having a talented team) that was in part reflective of Giannis’s notable limitations as an offensive engine. It often happens in the playoffs at some point (though, ironically, this may have actually been the most egregious example), and that year the Bucks were just lucky that the opponent’s injuries were barely enough to allow them to win the series anyways. Of course, one could point out that the Nuggets definitely weren’t good offensively (or defensively) in their series loss to the Suns that year. But I think the difference is that Jokic’s supporting cast was awful and couldn’t be expected to perform well against a really good team, while the Giannis’s supporting cast was good and could be expected to do so. Ultimately, there has to be some uncertainty here, because we really don’t know what Jokic would’ve been capable of with a competent team. So, while I’m inclined to think Jokic was already better, I think it’s close and I don’t have complete confidence that it was Jokic.

We've never seen Bucks being in the playoffs close to the Nuggets '20 level offensively - Jokic was individually a tier better player next year - Bucks talent wise were still good enough to be serviceable at the defensive end with Jokic and PF-equivalent of Brook.

Having to cherrypicking offensive results to make your point is why this isn't a serious conversation.

The 2020 nuggets were not as good as the 2019 or 2022 or 2021 Bucks. The 2021 and 2022 nuggets were nowhere near as good, and yout cast assements do not lineup with what the bucks did in games without Giannis. And that's setting aside Jamal Murray outscoring, outassisting while handling the ball more than Jokic did in his one decent run pre-2023

[rk2023]

I think it was genuinely very close that year. But I think Jokic was the superior player even then.

The thing that really gets me here with the Bucks 2021 title run is the Nets series—which I think was very illustrative of Giannis’s strengths and limitations. Obviously, a healthy Nets team would’ve likely beaten the Bucks, but that’s not the most interesting thing to me. What I found really baffling at the time was why the Bucks struggled so much to score in that series. The Nets were a bad defensive team, and yet the Bucks only managed to score 105.0 points per 100 possessions (compared to the 113.8 that the Nets gave up on average in the regular season, and 118.3 they’d given up in the first round of the playoffs). It was a genuinely awful offensive display that the Bucks were extremely lucky to survive. Of course, if we were inclined to take a charitable view of Giannis’s culpability in that, we’d note that Giannis scored a lot of points at a pretty decent efficiency (31.9 points per game on 59.2% TS) and that Jrue Holiday probably shot awfully in the series in significant part from expending so much energy defending Durant. But still, I think it was the type of awful team offense (despite having a talented team) that was in part reflective of Giannis’s notable limitations as an offensive engine. It often happens in the playoffs at some point (though, ironically, this may have actually been the most egregious example), and that year the Bucks were just lucky that the opponent’s injuries were barely enough to allow them to win the series anyways. Of course, one could point out that the Nuggets definitely weren’t good offensively (or defensively) in their series loss to the Suns that year. But I think the difference is that Jokic’s supporting cast was awful and couldn’t be expected to perform well against a really good team, while the Giannis’s supporting cast was good and could be expected to do so. Ultimately, there has to be some uncertainty here, because we really don’t know what Jokic would’ve been capable of with a competent team. So, while I’m inclined to think Jokic was already better, I think it’s close and I don’t have complete confidence that it was Jokic.

Yeah, that would be my take as well if not your elaboration.

Giannis had amazing elimination games in that series against Nets and amazing finals vs Suns, but the fact Bucks were on the brink of elimination with shorthanded Nets (basically an inch away), besides shooting slump and Bud's questionable decision making, shows also limitations of Giannis as a player. Jokic had already made at that time impressive trip to the WCF a year earlier and had his first peak year in regular season, so I'm comfortable with taking him (especially if you assume decently built team around him like Bucks talent-wise and fit-wise were built around Giannis at that time).

We've never seen Bucks being in the playoffs close to the Nuggets '20 level offensively - Jokic was individually a tier better player next year - Bucks talent wise were still good enough to be serviceable at the defensive end with Jokic and PF-equivalent of Brook.

Denver was a 115 or so ORTG (-3.5 Net overall) with Jokic on in the 2020 PS

Milwaukee was a 113 or so ORTG (8 Net overall) with Giannis on in the 2021 PS

[lessthanjake]

I think it was genuinely very close that year. But I think Jokic was the superior player even then.

The thing that really gets me here with the Bucks 2021 title run is the Nets series—which I think was very illustrative of Giannis’s strengths and limitations. Obviously, a healthy Nets team would’ve likely beaten the Bucks, but that’s not the most interesting thing to me. What I found really baffling at the time was why the Bucks struggled so much to score in that series. The Nets were a bad defensive team, and yet the Bucks only managed to score 105.0 points per 100 possessions (compared to the 113.8 that the Nets gave up on average in the regular season, and 118.3 they’d given up in the first round of the playoffs). It was a genuinely awful offensive display that the Bucks were extremely lucky to survive. Of course, if we were inclined to take a charitable view of Giannis’s culpability in that, we’d note that Giannis scored a lot of points at a pretty decent efficiency (31.9 points per game on 59.2% TS) and that Jrue Holiday probably shot awfully in the series in significant part from expending so much energy defending Durant. But still, I think it was the type of awful team offense (despite having a talented team) that was in part reflective of Giannis’s notable limitations as an offensive engine. It often happens in the playoffs at some point (though, ironically, this may have actually been the most egregious example), and that year the Bucks were just lucky that the opponent’s injuries were barely enough to allow them to win the series anyways. Of course, one could point out that the Nuggets definitely weren’t good offensively (or defensively) in their series loss to the Suns that year. But I think the difference is that Jokic’s supporting cast was awful and couldn’t be expected to perform well against a really good team, while the Giannis’s supporting cast was good and could be expected to do so. Ultimately, there has to be some uncertainty here, because we really don’t know what Jokic would’ve been capable of with a competent team. So, while I’m inclined to think Jokic was already better, I think it’s close and I don’t have complete confidence that it was Jokic.

Yeah, that would be my take as well if not your elaboration.

Giannis had amazing elimination games in that series against Nets and amazing finals vs Suns, but the fact Bucks were on the brink of elimination with shorthanded Nets (basically an inch away), besides shooting slump and Bud's questionable decision making, shows also limitations of Giannis as a player. Jokic had already made at that time impressive trip to the WCF a year earlier and had his first peak year in regular season, so I'm comfortable with taking him (especially if you assume decently built team around him like Bucks talent-wise and fit-wise were built around Giannis at that time).

We've never seen Bucks being in the playoffs close to the Nuggets '20 level offensively - Jokic was individually a tier better player next year - Bucks talent wise were still good enough to be serviceable at the defensive end with Jokic and PF-equivalent of Brook.

Denver was a 115 or so ORTG (-3.5 Net overall) with Jokic on in the 2023 PS

Milwaukee was a 113 or so ORTG (8 Net overall) with Giannis on in the 2021 PS

I think there may be a typo here. Basketball-Reference has the Nuggets at 120.9 points per 100 possessions with Jokic on the court in the 2023 playoffs (and a +9.0 net rating overall with Jokic on). Similarly, PBPstats has it at 121.07 points per 100 possessions with Jokic on (and a +8.97 net rating with Jokic on). Meanwhile, Basketball-Reference has the Bucks at 113.2 points per 100 possessions with Giannis on the court in the 2021 playoffs (and a +7.5 net rating overall with Giannis on), and PBPstats has it at 113.83 points per 100 possessions with Giannis on the court (and a +7.94 net rating with Giannis on). So the numbers you list for Giannis are right, but the Jokic ones are very far off. I think maybe you’re meaning to refer to the 2020 playoffs for Jokic, where the numbers you list are much closer? And that’d make sense, since you’re responding to a post that refers to the Nuggets in 2020. But just wanted to point out.

One more general thing I’d say on this is that, at least for me, I don’t really have a general concern that Giannis is a weak offensive player. The Bucks have been a consistently good regular season team offensively. And they have playoff series where they are good offensively as well (for instance, they were good offensively in the 2021 Finals). That’s despite the Bucks generally not having overwhelming offensive talent around Giannis. My concern is that there seem to be situations in the playoffs where a Giannis-led offense runs into a literal and figurative wall and gets slowed down a lot, even when it doesn’t really seem like they should on paper. I do think that that is indicative of some offensive limitations for Giannis, even if he is overall a very good offensive player. To me, the 2021 series against the Nets is the best example, because it was just inexplicable to me how bad the Bucks offense did against a genuinely bad defensive team.

[rk2023]

Yeah, that would be my take as well if not your elaboration.

Giannis had amazing elimination games in that series against Nets and amazing finals vs Suns, but the fact Bucks were on the brink of elimination with shorthanded Nets (basically an inch away), besides shooting slump and Bud's questionable decision making, shows also limitations of Giannis as a player. Jokic had already made at that time impressive trip to the WCF a year earlier and had his first peak year in regular season, so I'm comfortable with taking him (especially if you assume decently built team around him like Bucks talent-wise and fit-wise were built around Giannis at that time).

We've never seen Bucks being in the playoffs close to the Nuggets '20 level offensively - Jokic was individually a tier better player next year - Bucks talent wise were still good enough to be serviceable at the defensive end with Jokic and PF-equivalent of Brook.

Denver was a 115 or so ORTG (-3.5 Net overall) with Jokic on in the 2023 PS

Milwaukee was a 113 or so ORTG (8 Net overall) with Giannis on in the 2021 PS

I think there may be a typo here. Basketball-Reference has the Nuggets at 120.9 points per 100 possessions with Jokic on the court in the 2023 playoffs (and a +9.0 net rating overall with Jokic on). Similarly, PBPstats has it at 121.07 points per 100 possessions with Jokic on (and a +8.97 net rating with Jokic on). Meanwhile, Basketball-Reference has the Bucks at 113.2 points per 100 possessions with Giannis on the court in the 2021 playoffs (and a +7.5 net rating overall with Giannis on), and PBPstats has it at 113.83 points per 100 possessions with Giannis on the court (and a +7.94 net rating with Giannis on). So the numbers you list for Giannis are right, but the Jokic ones are very far off. I think maybe you’re meaning to refer to the 2020 playoffs for Jokic, where the numbers you list are much closer? And that’d make sense, since you’re responding to a post that refers to the Nuggets in 2020. But just wanted to point out.

One more general thing I’d say on this is that, at least for me, I don’t really have a general concern that Giannis is a weak offensive player. The Bucks have been a consistently good regular season team offensively. And they have playoff series where they are good offensively as well (for instance, they were good offensively in the 2021 Finals). That’s despite the Bucks generally not having overwhelming offensive talent around Giannis. My concern is that there seem to be situations in the playoffs where a Giannis-led offense runs into a literal and figurative wall and gets slowed down a lot, even when it doesn’t really seem like they should on paper. I do think that that is indicative of some offensive limitations for Giannis, even if he is overall a very good offensive player. To me, the 2021 series against the Nets is the best example, because it was just inexplicable to me how bad the Bucks offense did against a genuinely bad defensive team.

Meant to type 2020 (in response to The Master’s point) - and made a mistake for 2023. This will be edited, solid catch.

[Saints14]

I don’t think it’s crazy to think Jokic was better back then, but with Giannis doing what he did in the finals I’m not inclined to entertain hypotheticals. 2021 was Giannis’ year