RealGM

Taking out the box score (as they’re hard to compare across eras, and sometimes less volume scoring leads to more impact) - which one of these longevity titans would you consider a better player. Some standardized measures for impact below:

Stockton from 1999-2002:
• 22.2 PER
• .213 WS/48
• 6.2 BPM
• 18.2 VORP
• 12.8 on/off

LeBron from 2021-24:
• 24.4 PER
• .160 WS/48
• 7.0 BPM
• 17.7 VORP
• 7.7 on/off

The only knock is games missed. I think when healthy age 36-39 LeBron might be better than any year of Stockton. Still close but LeBron is still really good and his bbiq/experience in the playoffs is on another level. In a vacuum you'd take a healthy LeBron over any version of Stockton imo. Worth noting that if he and AD were both healthy there's a good chance they repeat in 2021 and maybe win it in 2022 or 2023.

Stockton is closer to a random starter than he is to Lebron.

Imagine current LeBron in position to play 29 minutes a game on +5 SRS team like Stockton did in his twilight years, come on.

The Master wrote:Imagine current LeBron in position to play 29 minutes a game on +5 SRS team like Stockton did in his twilight years, come on.

The only reason he's not able to do that is because he isn't a good GM.

Close enough. LeBron can ramp up the offense a little more and for longer, Stockton has him defensively though. Not to say LeBron wasn't good, but Stockton was still racking up all-defensive kind of seasons on quality and ability. LeBron was pretty mediocre there defensively after those injuries in 22 and 23.


I want to say this about this comparison, Austin Reaves was visibly as disruptive if not moreso than LeBron in the WCF against Denver purely based on his ability to keep his dribble alive and be a threat to shoot and pass at the same time. LeBron could still muscle his way into points rebounds and assists against a halfcourt defense but his creativity was clearly diminished and really on the low side. Reaves was creating more dynamic things with his dribble game.

Old Stockton blows old LeBron on playmaking ability and creativity. He still had his quickness and natural body movements which LeBron does not anymore.

I could easily see Stockton topping LeBron on playoff impact if Reaves did it.

There are a lot of people who make blind plus/minus checks their entire process of “assessing” basketball, but I have to give props to going above and beyond with inventing explanations for those trends with the understanding that future readers might naively take them at face value. Extraordinary commitment to a long-term bit; if only we could all be so dedicated.

capfan33 wrote:

The Master wrote:Imagine current LeBron in position to play 29 minutes a game on +5 SRS team like Stockton did in his twilight years, come on.

The only reason he's not able to do that is because he isn't a good GM.

Most GMs do that as their one job and dedicate 50 hours a week to it.

LeBron has to do the "GM job" on his phone in the 10 minutes a day he drops a deuce.

ShotCreator wrote:Close enough. LeBron can ramp up the offense a little more and for longer, Stockton has him defensively though. Not to say LeBron wasn't good, but Stockton was still racking up all-defensive kind of seasons on quality and ability. LeBron was pretty mediocre there defensively after those injuries in 22 and 23.


I want to say this about this comparison, Austin Reaves was visibly as disruptive if not moreso than LeBron in the WCF against Denver purely based on his ability to keep his dribble alive and be a threat to shoot and pass at the same time. LeBron could still muscle his way into points rebounds and assists against a halfcourt defense but his creativity was clearly diminished and really on the low side. Reaves was creating more dynamic things with his dribble game.

Old Stockton blows old LeBron on playmaking ability and creativity. He still had his quickness and natural body movements which LeBron does not anymore.

I could easily see Stockton topping LeBron on playoff impact if Reaves did it.

Significantly different game. Real difficult to compare the defense here.
Also, LeBron’s IQ on defense and calling things out in order to get his teammates in place is something Stockton doesn’t have.

I love Stockton by the way, higher on him than most I think.

capfan33 wrote:

The Master wrote:Imagine current LeBron in position to play 29 minutes a game on +5 SRS team like Stockton did in his twilight years, come on.

The only reason he's not able to do that is because he isn't a good GM.

Love how Lebron is not the gm when good moves are made and is the gm when bad moves are made

ShotCreator wrote:Close enough. LeBron can ramp up the offense a little more and for longer, Stockton has him defensively though. Not to say LeBron wasn't good, but Stockton was still racking up all-defensive kind of seasons on quality and ability. LeBron was pretty mediocre there defensively after those injuries in 22 and 23.


I want to say this about this comparison, Austin Reaves was visibly as disruptive if not moreso than LeBron in the WCF against Denver purely based on his ability to keep his dribble alive and be a threat to shoot and pass at the same time. LeBron could still muscle his way into points rebounds and assists against a halfcourt defense but his creativity was clearly diminished and really on the low side. Reaves was creating more dynamic things with his dribble game.

Old Stockton blows old LeBron on playmaking ability and creativity. He still had his quickness and natural body movements which LeBron does not anymore.

I could easily see Stockton topping LeBron on playoff impact if Reaves did it.

Does he remind you of Mike Conley in 2021?

capfan33 wrote:

The Master wrote:Imagine current LeBron in position to play 29 minutes a game on +5 SRS team like Stockton did in his twilight years, come on.

The only reason he's not able to do that is because he isn't a good GM.

What do you mean?

LeBron brought himself and AD to the Lakers. They win 0 rings and are noncompetitive if that doesn't happen.

Late 30's lebron is comfortably better than peak stockton lol

Colbinii wrote:

capfan33 wrote:

The Master wrote:Imagine current LeBron in position to play 29 minutes a game on +5 SRS team like Stockton did in his twilight years, come on.

The only reason he's not able to do that is because he isn't a good GM.

What do you mean?

LeBron brought himself and AD to the Lakers. They win 0 rings and are noncompetitive if that doesn't happen.

And he forced the Cavs to trade Anthony Bennett for Kevin Love. Got to give him props for that.

Love Stockton but comparing him to LeBron is a super tough sell as LeBron is the consensus GOAT. It's like taking the rookie flavor of the year and calling him the "next Jordan." How many guys live up to that comparison? (Answer, just Lebron.)

AEnigma wrote:There are a lot of people who make blind plus/minus checks their entire process of “assessing” basketball, but I have to give props to going above and beyond with inventing explanations for those trends with the understanding that future readers might naively take them at face value. Extraordinary commitment to a long-term bit; if only we could all be so dedicated.

I honest to god have constantly found plus minus and it's derivatives to be picking up on extremely subtle, extremely imapctful on-court things to such a level it's near perfect in my experience. I don't like boxscore numbers any more than plus minus numbers, plus minus just has an undeniable substance to it night to night, year to year. I've tracked it constantly for about 8 or so years now consciously and subconsciously.

But ANYWAY, most importantly give me credit being genuinely extremely low on LeBron of the past few years purely based on ho he played visually. Plus minus backing it up just speaks to the point I just made above.

viewtopic.php?p=105925151#p105925151

ShotCreator wrote:I thought he clearly just sucked I out there. Super tentative. Literally reminded me of Westbrook or Simmons.

Narrow set of plays he can actually affect offensively. I think it’s telling he let Russel and Schroeder dictate down the stretch offensively, even when GS went on a run. Because even Schroeder and Russell have a narrow set of ways they can create on ball.

LeBron looks like he still has elite burst and explosion. I’ve seen it on defense. But maybe he be can’t sustain it? Maybe he’s lost touch at the rim?

Either way, this is the worst I’ve ever seen him by far. He’s not better than a guy like Reaves or Russell by a long shot playing like this.

I guess it depends on team needs. Stockton will play defense, play every game and focus on making the players around him better. LeBron won't play defense, will miss almost half the games and will focus on getting big numbers.

Obviously that sound harsh for LeBron, but this is already a lopsided comparison. If you have an elite team with some good scoring you want Stockton. Otherwise you're taking LeBron.

rk2023 wrote:Stockton from 1999-2002:
• 22.2 PER
• .213 WS/48
• 6.2 BPM
• 12.8 on/off

......While playing 29.7 mpg.

rk2023 wrote:LeBron from 2021-24:
• 24.4 PER
• .160 WS/48
• 7.0 BPM
• 17.7 VORP
• 7.7 on/off

.....While playing 35.4 mpg.


Just feel it's important to point this out when citing rate metrics. I admit it's much closer than I would have thought at first glance, and I must give Stockton credit for the iron-man durability (LeBron not an iron-man at this stage).
Though I'm still siding with LeBron by a small margin, especially if I'm eyeing someone who could still anchor a contender.

ShotCreator wrote:

AEnigma wrote:There are a lot of people who make blind plus/minus checks their entire process of “assessing” basketball, but I have to give props to going above and beyond with inventing explanations for those trends with the understanding that future readers might naively take them at face value. Extraordinary commitment to a long-term bit; if only we could all be so dedicated.

I honest to god have constantly found plus minus and it's derivatives to be picking up on extremely subtle, extremely imapctful on-court things to such a level it's near perfect in my experience. I don't like boxscore numbers any more than plus minus numbers, plus minus just has an undeniable substance to it night to night, year to year. I've tracked it constantly for about 8 or so years now consciously and subconsciously.

But ANYWAY, most importantly give me credit being genuinely extremely low on LeBron of the past few years purely based on ho he played visually. Plus minus backing it up just speaks to the point I just made above.

viewtopic.php?p=105925151#p105925151

ShotCreator wrote:I thought he clearly just sucked I out there. Super tentative. Literally reminded me of Westbrook or Simmons.

Narrow set of plays he can actually affect offensively. I think it’s telling he let Russel and Schroeder dictate down the stretch offensively, even when GS went on a run. Because even Schroeder and Russell have a narrow set of ways they can create on ball.

LeBron looks like he still has elite burst and explosion. I’ve seen it on defense. But maybe he be can’t sustain it? Maybe he’s lost touch at the rim?

Either way, this is the worst I’ve ever seen him by far. He’s not better than a guy like Reaves or Russell by a long shot playing like this.

Oh I agree, you deserve immense credit for this phenomenal piece of performance art. Keep it up.

ShotCreator wrote:
Old Stockton blows old LeBron on playmaking ability and creativity. He still had his quickness and natural body movements which LeBron does not anymore.

I could easily see Stockton topping LeBron on playoff impact if Reaves did it.

Just what was Oldman stockton creating while being such a non-threat as a scorer? The guy was taking about 8 shots a game. You can't possibly believe a player who barely shoots could actually be a high end playmaker?

Being the the trigger man in sets ain't playmaking. It's not difficult to rack up assist in that role when the teams primary scorer is a offball play finisher. We just saw Chris Paul do a better version of this in Phoenix.