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Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:25 am
by Lebronnygoat
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Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:37 am
by edgymnerch
The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.
The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:54 am
by homecourtloss
One of the things that gets lost when discussing how LeBron has been able to take offenses to highest heights is his personal scoring efficiency no matter how good the defenses got, and he played a LOT of games vs. -4 rDRtg teams or better (81); in these games his scoring efficacy didn’t really change. One of the most impressive things is that his relative effective FG% (reFG%) doesn’t get affected by defenses until you get to the -7 rDRtgs or better, which he played 23 games against. For some scorers, they can keep their rTS% numbers g eternally intact vs. good defenses, but their reFG% drops.
Notice how now matter how good the defenses get, the rTS% and reFG% pretty much stay the same:
His scoring efficacy is pretty much the same whether he is facing a -2 rDRtg or -7 rDRtg, which is crazy:
If we compare this with Jordan, Jordan had higher volume, and his rTS% held up well, but his reFG% dropped against the very best defenses of which he didn’t play as many games:
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:56 am
by homecourtloss
LeBron from 2012-2018 played 143 playoff games with a +7.1 rTS% (-2.9 rDRtg faced)
LeBron from 2012-2018 sans 2015 played 123 playoff games with a +9.1 rTS% (-3 rDRtg faced)
LeBron from 2014 to 2018 sans 2015 played 77 playoff games with a +10.3 rTS% (-2.6 rDRtg faced)
LeBron from 2012-2018 taking his best series (85 games worth vs. a combined -3.2 rDRtg): +11.3 rTS%
LeBron from 2012-2018 taking his best series (72 games worth vs. a combined -3.3 rDRtg): +12.1 rTS%
LeBron from 2012-2018 taking his best series (65 games worth vs. a combined -3.6 rDRtg): +12.4 rTS% and +12.7 reFG%
(notice that the defenses are better but LeBron is better vs. the better defenses)
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:56 am
by Lebronnygoat
edgymnerch wrote:The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.
The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer
4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate, especially when the defensive competition is in LeBron’s favor by -1. Peak wise LeBron’s resilience clears too. 2014 and 2009 > Any Jordan. Regular season is closer. Though peak regular season goes to LeBron. While prime is comparable.
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 4:58 am
by Heej
edgymnerch wrote:The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.
The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer
This handwave would've been a lot more effective if there's wasn't such a noticeable difference in the quality of defensive competition relative to era.
Also, might be outside the scope of the topic here but the volume argument is tempered by the open teammate shots generated by LeBron which ironically is relevant to his scoring resilience because his passing forces teams to play less aggressive swarming schemes against him.
Logically it follows that extra Jordan buckets at a decreased efficiency indicate he was taking shots that were better off being passed out and keeping defenses honest.
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:02 am
by homecourtloss
Heej wrote:edgymnerch wrote:The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.
The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer
This handwave would've been a lot more effective if there's wasn't such a noticeable difference in the quality of defensive competition relative to era.
Also, might be outside the scope of the topic here but the volume argument is tempered by the open teammate shots generated by LeBron which ironically is relevant to his scoring resilience because his passing forces teams to play less aggressive swarming schemes against him.
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:04 am
by Heej
homecourtloss wrote:Heej wrote:edgymnerch wrote:The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.
The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer
This handwave would've been a lot more effective if there's wasn't such a noticeable difference in the quality of defensive competition relative to era.
Also, might be outside the scope of the topic here but the volume argument is tempered by the open teammate shots generated by LeBron which ironically is relevant to his scoring resilience because his passing forces teams to play less aggressive swarming schemes against him.
Really kinda validates the whole Expansion Emperor meme when you see how quickly he fell off vs better comp.
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:06 am
by Lebronnygoat
homecourtloss wrote:One of the things that gets lost when discussing how LeBron has been able to take offenses to highest heights is his personal scoring efficiency no matter how good the defenses got, and he played a LOT of games vs. -4 rDRtg teams or better (81); in these games his scoring efficacy didn’t really change. One of the most impressive things is that his relative effective FG% (reFG%) doesn’t get affected by defenses until you get to the -7 rDRtgs or better, which he played 23 games against. For some scorers, they can keep their rTS% numbers g eternally intact vs. good defenses, but their reFG% drops.
Notice how now matter how good the defenses get, the rTS% and reFG% pretty much stay the same:
His scoring efficacy is pretty much the same whether he is facing a -2 rDRtg or -7 rDRtg, which is crazy:
If we compare this with Jordan, Jordan had higher volume, and his rTS% held up well, but his reFG% dropped against the very best defenses of which he didn’t play as many games:
Shows how LeBron simply didn’t exert his GOAT scoring against not as tough defenses due to it not being needed. Unlike MJ who’s averaging 45 on the 92 Miami Heat. Shouldn’t -3 rdrtg be more of a gap? Is this rts to the league or opp
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:14 am
by OhayoKD
Jordan's main advantage as a scorer is he can retain high-volume better next to other stars(in a sense he is more portable there). He also just does it more in the Regular season which I wouldn't wholly discount.
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:15 am
by OhayoKD
Lebronnygoat wrote:edgymnerch wrote:The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.
The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer
4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate, especially when the defensive competition is in LeBron’s favor by -1. Peak wise LeBron’s resilience clears too. 2014 and 2009 > Any Jordan. Regular season is closer. Though peak regular season goes to LeBron. While prime is comparable.
Does it? Show your work
Will say the more you lean towards efficiency, the stronger Kareem's GOAT scoring case becomes
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:29 am
by Lebronnygoat
OhayoKD wrote:Lebronnygoat wrote:edgymnerch wrote:The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.
The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer
4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate, especially when the defensive competition is in LeBron’s favor by -1. Peak wise LeBron’s resilience clears too. 2014 and 2009 > Any Jordan. Regular season is closer. Though peak regular season goes to LeBron. While prime is comparable.
Does it? Show your work
Will say the more you lean towards efficiency, the stronger Kareem's GOAT scoring case becomes
Well, 1977 PS Kareem IA/75 was 32.3 +13.4. 2009, 2014 clear that with far more volume and more efficiency. This is peak PS Kareem btw.
Perhaps I was too crazy with clears, but 4 efficiency points are better without thinking for a while.
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 5:39 am
by 1993Playoffs
He kinda became unstoppable in his 2nd Cavs. Only thing holding him back was stamina
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 8:55 am
by 70sFan
I didn't know only 2 players exist in this discussion. Why don't you share other players numbers as well?
BTW, I'd have to check my spreadsheets but I think something is wrong with these numbers.
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 11:46 am
by IdolW0rm
Lebronnygoat wrote:edgymnerch wrote:The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.
The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer
4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate
Yeah, no...
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 12:08 pm
by Lebronnygoat
IdolW0rm wrote:Lebronnygoat wrote:edgymnerch wrote:The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.
The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer
4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate
Yeah, no...
It’s surely better lol.
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:33 pm
by Colbinii
edgymnerch wrote:The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao.
This would be true if PP75 and Efficiency were linear, but they aren't.
A 4 PP75 gap =/= 4 Rel Efficiency Gap
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 1:40 pm
by Colbinii
IdolW0rm wrote:Lebronnygoat wrote:edgymnerch wrote:The gap in the volume is literally more than the gap in the efficiency lmao. I'm not saying Jordan is better but in terms of scoring, it's quite 50-50 and you can make a case for both as the better scorer. Plus you left out the regular season where I assume the gap increases.
The stats you shared quite literally confirm that there's no clear cut better scorer
4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate
Yeah, no...
Alright, let's break it down for you.
LeBron: PPG-30.1 rTS- +7.7
Jordan: PPG-34.3 rTS- +3.8
The Big thing we are missing with this data is TSA, but when I try to look for TSA, I think OP has his numbers wrong.
OP, why do you not include every series for LeBron?
His PP100 from 2009-2018 is 37.9, which puts him at 28.4 PP75.
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:26 pm
by ChipotleWest
Jordan had the era with the better defenders, and how can you do not points per game? You don't want to because Lebron loses. All these advanced stats that try to paint Lebron as better are nonsense. Lebron is the all time scoring leader because of longevity, but Jordan was the better scorer. Especially considering Lebron has shot over 5000 more 3 pointers than Jordan and yet still is below him in ppg it's not even close.
Scoring titles
Jordan: 10
Lebron: 1
Re: Prime LeBron James is the most resilient scorer in NBA History
Posted: Tue Apr 16, 2024 3:29 pm
by Lebronnygoat
Colbinii wrote:IdolW0rm wrote:Lebronnygoat wrote:
4 efficiency points clears 4 volume points. Thats not even a debate
Yeah, no...
Alright, let's break it down for you.
LeBron: PPG-30.1 rTS- +7.7
Jordan: PPG-34.3 rTS- +3.8
The Big thing we are missing with this data is TSA, but when I try to look for TSA, I think OP has his numbers wrong.
OP, why do you not include every series for LeBron?
His PP100 from 2009-2018 is 37.9, which puts him at 28.4 PP75.
I’m curious as to how your numbers aren’t different than mine. PBP stats shows me the per 100 stats and I multiply them by .75 to get per 75. Then I look at the league average ORTG vs those elite defenses, get the result and multiply it by the per 75 numbers. This is to truly see how well they compared vs their level of elite defenses, such as I do with TS%. Shooting 50%TS vs the Spurs in 1999 is considered below league average (51.1) when looking at the total league average of TS%. Though, when you adjust the TS% to league average TS% VS THE SPURS, it’s actually much more impressive. The league average TS% vs SAS is 46.4. So 50.0-46.4=3.6. That’s +3.6rTS. That’s good.