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This our FINAL vote. No more Nominees will be added.

Our system is now as follows:

1. We have a pool of Nominees you are to choose from for your Induction (main) vote to decide who next gets on the List. Choose your top vote, and if you'd like to, a second vote which will be used for runoff purposes if needed.

2. Nomination vote now works the same way.

3. You must include reasoning for each of your votes, though you may re-use your old words in a new post.

4. Post as much as they want, but when you do your official Vote make it really clear to me at the top of that post that that post is your Vote. And if you decide to change your vote before the votes are tallied, please edit that same Vote post.

5. Anyone may post thoughts, but please only make a Vote post if you're on the Voter list. If you'd like to be added to the project, please ask in the General Thread for the project. Note that you will not be added immediately to the project now. If you express an interest during the #2 thread, for example, the earliest you'll be added to the Voter list is for the #3.

5. I'll tally the votes when I wake up the morning after the Deadline (I don't care if you change things after the official Deadline, but once I tally, it's over). For this specific Vote, if people ask before the Deadline, I'll extend it.

Here's the list of the Voter Pool as it stands right now (and if I forgot anyone I approved, do let me know):



Alright, the Nominees for you to choose among for the next slot on the list (in alphabetical order):

Chris Bosh


Cliff Hagan


Connie Hawkins


Chet Walker


James Worthy



As requested, here's the current list so far along with the historical spreadsheet of previous projects:

Current List
Historical Spreadsheet

Young kids will be questioning why Kyrie isn't a nominee here I'm sure he'll be around top 80 or 90 or so at least by the end of his career.

I think James Worthy should get this spot, 2nd place IMO would be Bosh or Hagan.

Vote for #100: Connie Hawkins. I had been voting Hagan over the Hawk, but since this is the final round the fan in me is giving Hawkings the nod. Enjoyed watching the Hawk in his prime. He was an MVP (ABA) and named to the First Team three times (once in the ABA and twice in the NBA). He was a decent passer and a solid, if underrated, defender who likely would have had a better defensive rep if blocks and steals had been recorded during his prime. Probably one of the players most negatively impacted by the era he played in as I'm sure medical advancements are much better today than they were when the Hawk was playing.

Alternate vote: Cliff Hagan. Assuming alternates are still needed here in case of a tie-breaker for the last spot in the top 100. Never saw Hagan play live but he was a 6-time all star, led the league in OWS once, and was consistently in the top 20 in points, rebounds, and assists per game.

VOTE: James Worthy
(Alternate: Connie Hawkins)
Three titles total, two titles as the team’s second-best player, and one title which featured a Game 7 performance extraordinary enough to earn Finals MVP. I do not think there are a hundred players more important to the story of the league, and excluding him would feel like a significant misstep by that alone.

1984-91 Worthy in games with Magic: 19.2/5.6/3.1 with 2.0 turnovers on 57.8% efficiency (34.6 minutes per game)
1984-91 Worthy in 51 regular season games without Magic: 20.1/5.7/3.7 with 2.5 turnovers on 59.6% efficiency (35.4 minutes per game)

Chet is the closest here by balancing the best longevity of the group with the most NBA success as a team’s primary star, but ultimately he is more of an honourable mention for me. And seeing as he has no primary support, I will lend my alternate to Connie Hawkins to potentially fulfill that Bill Walton role at #100.

A few closing notes:

- With Davies’ induction, a champion from every year has been represented (with ABA doubling in 1974-76). By my count there are ~30 non-champions on the list.

- The champions of 1946-56, 1958, 1975 (and 1974-76 ABA), 1977, 1994, 2016, 2021, and 2023 all have only one representative each. Those latter three will be interesting to monitor in future projects.

- Every Finals loser from 1957-24 is represented except for the 1976 Suns. Slight asterisk on the 1999 Knicks. I will note all four 1976 ABA conference finalists were represented.

- Every multi-time conference finalist post-merger has been represented (for slightly messy reasons as applied to the 1979/84 Suns). There were several one-offs who missed the cut, most notably the 2002 Kings.

- Every NBA MVP was inducted except for expected exclusion Derrick Rose, and the 2011 2nd through 8th place MVP finishers were all inducted. In fact, we inducted every 2nd place MVP finisher except 1984 Bernard King (who relatedly finished as our cutoff for MVP share exclusion) and zero-time all-NBA 1968 Lenny Wilkens. We also inducted two NBL MVPs and the 1972-76 ABA MVPs.

On the topic of Chris Bosh.....

I'm going to come at it from a different angle, that of sort of arbitrary (though nonetheless relevant [perhaps]) benchmarks or thresholds......and then whittle things down by adding other thresholds. Yes, again I acknowledge this is arbitrary, and even a bit cherry-picky; yet some of the thresholds have been expressly cited as important or relevant to various posters.
Additionally, I think it can scarcely be denied that, once a few are layered on top of each other, we're talking about a pretty historically relevant player.......


How many NON-inducted players ever received 11 [or more] All-Star selections?
Just one: Chris Bosh
No additional whittling necessary; he is the stand-alone among all non-inducted players in this. I realize that's just a media-awarded accolade, which is frequently mis-assigned; however, his 11 nods is not like Kobe's 9 All-Defensive Team honours, nor even like Gary Payton's 9 All-D honours: most of them are legitimately earned.


So let's use the same starter, but make it a little wider/more permissive.....
How many NON-inducted players ever received 10 [or more] All-Star selection?
Three: Hal Greer, Carmelo Anthony, and Chris Bosh.

How many of ^^^those also have an All-NBA honour? All three, so that doesn't narrow the field.
How many of them also won a chip [as a starter, no less]? Two: Hal Greer and Chris Bosh.
How many of them won TWO titles as a starter? Only Chris Bosh.

Or suppose we leave it at the threshold of ONE title [still have Bosh and Greer], but then for the other NON era-relativists ask: which of those careers occurred in the post-merger era? Again, only Chris Bosh.

fwiw, I could widen the All-Star requirement to 9, but that adds only ONE player to the starting pool [Lenny Wilkens], and he would be eliminated by any one of the follow-up categories (no All-NBA honours, no titles, did not play in post-merger league).


How many NON-inducted players scored at least 17,000 career pts and had at least 26,000 pts+reb+ast?
Ok, actually quite a few (32, to be precise), though some of the names constitute some pretty strong company:
George McGinnis, Spencer Haywood, Grant Hill, Chris Webber, Kevin Willis, Otis Thorpe, Rudy Gay, Bailey Howell, Lenny Wilkens, Dave Bing, Zach Randolph, Chet Walker, Jason Terry, Reggie Theus, Gail Goodrich, Eddie Johnson, Terry Cummings, Walter Davis, Clifford Robinson, Bernard King, Antawn Jamison, Tom Chambers, Joe Johnson, Mitch Richmond, Walt Bellamy, Hal Greer, DeMar DeRozan, LaMarcus Aldridge, Alex English, Dan Issel, Carmelo Anthony......and Chris Bosh.

Now, I could again utilize the "who has a title [as a starter]" question, and that's going to narrow the field DRAMATICALLY (I think down to just six: Chet Walker, Hal Greer [same team as Walker], Gail Goodrich, Jason Terry, Bailey Howell, and Chris Bosh). And if I stipulated TWO titles, then it's down to just Bosh and Howell (and only one of them was in the post-merger era)......

Or I could use some threshold of All-Stars or All-NBAs again, too.....

But let's instead use another statistical requirement; how about something that hones in on efficiency (since we're starting with a field based upon mass of box production)?

I could go with turnover economy; something like fewer than 2,000 career TO's [Bosh had just 1,807, btw]. That would also narrow the field substantially (Aldridge still makes the cut easily, but most do not). However, we don't have turnover data for the old guys.

So we'll use relative shooting efficiency: how many of those 32 players ALSO had a positive career TS Add (like even +0.1)?
Well, now the field's down to 22, because the following are all removed: LaMarcus Aldridge [barely, though again: TO's], George McGinnis, Chris Webber, Kevin Willis, Rudy Gay, Eddie Johnson, Terry Cummings, Clifford Robinson, Antawn Jamison, and Joe Johnson.

To whittle further, how about a more relevant positive TS Add?......How many of those 22 would still remain if we required at least 500 TS Add?
Down to a pool of just 14 [slightly more distinguished] players: Grant Hill, Otis Thorpe, Bailey Howell, Lenny Wilkens, Chet Walker, Jason Terry, Hal Greer, Walter Davis, Bernard King [very turnover-prone, however], Mitch Richmond, Walt Bellamy, Alex English, Dan Issel.....and Chris Bosh.

What about at least 1000 TS Add?
Now it's just six: Otis Thorpe, Bailey Howell, Chet Walker, Walt Bellamy, Dan Issel, and Chris Bosh.


How many of those six won a title?
Bailey Howell, Chet Walker, and Chris Bosh.

How many won TWO? Bailey Howell and Chris Bosh.
How many in the post-merger era? Or with 9+ All-Star selections, etc (you get the point)? Only Chris Bosh


His career by the box-aggregates looks like this:
20.6 PER, .159 WS/48, +1.9 BPM, all with a CAREER average of 35.8 mpg (nearly 32k career minutes).

In the playoffs:
18.4 PER, .144 WS/48, +1.8 BPM (in 35.2 mpg) [fwiw, "Big Game James" career playoffs: 18.3 PER, .135 WS/48, +2.9 BPM]

In career [playoff included] vanilla RAPM is +5.0 (tied for 51st among all players '97-'24 (28 most recent years of NBA history: comprises half [just OVER half, I believe] of all player-seasons played in NBL/BAA/NBA/ABA from '47 to present), this while averaging higher mpg than most of those ahead of him, more career minutes than half of the field ahead of him, too.


To me, he's just such an easy inclusion in the top 100. I don't think there is anyone left who can match the combination of:
peak play
overall prime/career player quality
versatility/adaptability and spacing
longevity
strong box production and aggragates
strong impact signals
individual accomplishment
team accomplishment
quality as a teammate, etc
......that Bosh's career entails. All in a super-competitive era, too.

His candidacy is almost glaringly obvious to me.


VOTE: Chris Bosh

Alternate vote: James Worthy

AEnigma wrote:- Every NBA MVP was inducted except for expected exclusion Derrick Rose, and the 2011 2nd through 8th place finishers were all represented. In fact, we inducted every 2nd place finisher except 1984 Bernard King (relatedly also finished as our cutoff for MVP share exclusion) and zero-time all-NBA 1968 Lenny Wilkins. We also inducted two NBL MVPs and four total ABA MVPs (1972 Gilmore and 1974-76 Erving).

This excludes Wanzer's somewhat mysterious 1953 MVP. HoF used to acknowledge it (in NBA encylopedia books - which I think the copy for HoF profile section may have come from from them ... or else Encylopedia eds acknowledged it ... by including it they kind of did anyway - and online [but not online anymore]) and multiple other books cite it.

It's not clear but given RotY lineage starts in '53 the idea that MVP may have too isn't unthinkable.

Who were the 1954/55 MVPs?

WinesburgOhio wrote:The MVP award didn't officially exist until 1956, but Bobby Wanzer is listed as the "unofficial" 1953 NBA MVP in a few books and even previously acknowledged as such by the HOF, but this doesn't appear to be true. He was 2nd-team All-NBA that year (big red flag), and the primary "unofficial" MVP award was the Metropolitan Sportswriters' Sam Davis Memorial Award which went to Bob Cousy; the Celtics were 2 wins better than the Royals that year, and Cousy's stats were vastly superior to Wanzer's (20-6-8 vs 15-5-4). Wanzer was named as his team's top player that year at a team banquet or something like that, and my guess is this somehow got misreported years later as being named the league's best player, and no one ever corrected it before it got restated numerous places.

AEnigma wrote:Who were the 1954-56 MVPs?

WinesburgOhio wrote:The MVP award didn't officially exist until 1956, but Bobby Wanzer is listed as the "unofficial" 1953 NBA MVP in a few books and even previously acknowledged as such by the HOF, but this doesn't appear to be true. He was 2nd-team All-NBA that year (big red flag), and the primary "unofficial" MVP award was the Metropolitan Sportswriters' Sam Davis Memorial Award which went to Bob Cousy; the Celtics were 2 wins better than the Royals that year, and Cousy's stats were vastly superior to Wanzer's (20-6-8 vs 15-5-4). Wanzer was named as his team's top player that year at a team banquet or something like that, and my guess is this somehow got misreported years later as being named the league's best player, and no one ever corrected it before it got restated numerous places.

I believe the Sam Davis Awards were:

1949-50 - George Mikan, MPL
1950-51 - George Mikan, MPL
1951-52 - Paul Arizin, PHW
1952-53 - Bob Cousy, BOS
1953-54 - Neil Johnston, PHW
1954-55 - Bob Cousy, BOS

I don't remember who won it in later years (since the real award exists), but they gave it out into the late 60s at least.

AEnigma wrote:Who were the 1954-56 MVPs?

Unclear ... if indeed they were given.

Wanzer in 1953 is the only one that I've seen the claim for (for what appears to be an official MVP, as others have noted there have been other awards - Emininence's Sam Davis listing tallies with what Robert Bradley of the APBR gives). But besides the Hall website a few years ago it was in the first version of the "The Official NBA Encyclopedia" (the first one under that name, Hollander and Sachare, 1989 - as above in the Hall section - at a glance not in Sachare's 2nd ed in '94 or Hubbard's 3rd ed of 2000); Bjarkman 2000; Porter 2005 and Cohen 2013.

eminence wrote:

AEnigma wrote:Who were the 1954-56 MVPs?

WinesburgOhio wrote:The MVP award didn't officially exist until 1956, but Bobby Wanzer is listed as the "unofficial" 1953 NBA MVP in a few books and even previously acknowledged as such by the HOF, but this doesn't appear to be true. He was 2nd-team All-NBA that year (big red flag), and the primary "unofficial" MVP award was the Metropolitan Sportswriters' Sam Davis Memorial Award which went to Bob Cousy; the Celtics were 2 wins better than the Royals that year, and Cousy's stats were vastly superior to Wanzer's (20-6-8 vs 15-5-4). Wanzer was named as his team's top player that year at a team banquet or something like that, and my guess is this somehow got misreported years later as being named the league's best player, and no one ever corrected it before it got restated numerous places.

I believe the Sam Davis Awards were:

1949-50 - George Mikan, MPL
1950-51 - George Mikan, MPL
1951-52 - Paul Arizin, PHW
1952-53 - Bob Cousy, BOS
1953-54 - Neil Johnston, PHW
1954-55 - Bob Cousy, BOS

I don't remember who won it in later years (since the real award exists), but they gave it out into the late 60s at least.

So just piggy backing:

No official NBA MVPs in those years.
Davis award seems the closest thing to that.
Wanzer is referenced as an MVP in places, but whether this was another unofficial award, or confusion is unclear.
Wanzer is not the only case where there's confusion like this, as I've said, I've seen both Bob Davies and Al Cervi credited as NBL MVP in '46-47, but they are never credited together. Sources either say one or the other.

I was rhetorically trying to illustrate that there is no cause to believe there was a 1953 one-off MVP and anything suggesting otherwise as it pertains to Wanzer is either in error or referencing something well outside the mainstream.

Funny how Johnston could earn (a semi-official) MVP on a 29-win team.

Doctor MJ wrote:

eminence wrote:

AEnigma wrote:Who were the 1954-56 MVPs?

I believe the Sam Davis Awards were:

1949-50 - George Mikan, MPL
1950-51 - George Mikan, MPL
1951-52 - Paul Arizin, PHW
1952-53 - Bob Cousy, BOS
1953-54 - Neil Johnston, PHW
1954-55 - Bob Cousy, BOS

I don't remember who won it in later years (since the real award exists), but they gave it out into the late 60s at least.

So just piggy backing:

No official NBA MVPs in those years.
Davis award seems the closest thing to that.
Wanzer is referenced as an MVP in places, but whether this was another unofficial award, or confusion is unclear.
Wanzer is not the only case where there's confusion like this, as I've said, I've seen both Bob Davies and Al Cervi credited as NBL MVP in '46-47, but they are never credited together. Sources either say one or the other.

I'd disagree with the phrasing on '47.

I've seen Davies not Cervi, e.g. Bradley, 2nd ed, 2010, p65

25Mar47 Bob Davies of Rochester is named NBL Most Valuable Player

I'm not sure if I've seen Cervi without Davies ... I don't think I have.
But I'd say I've seen both in what I'd call the same place e.g. The Official NBA Basketball Encyclopedia Chapter 9 "The Hall of Fame" p350 and 351. [edit: this refers the the '89 Hollander and Sachare, 1st edition]

Vote: Connie Hawkins
Alt. vote: Chris Bosh

It came down to peak vs longevity. And I will be consistent with my process throughout this project.

Hawkins had a weak MVP level peak. That’s enough to overcome Bosh’s extra 4 seasons of All Star level play. Only just though. They are 88 and 90 on my personal list.

Owly wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

eminence wrote:
I believe the Sam Davis Awards were:

1949-50 - George Mikan, MPL
1950-51 - George Mikan, MPL
1951-52 - Paul Arizin, PHW
1952-53 - Bob Cousy, BOS
1953-54 - Neil Johnston, PHW
1954-55 - Bob Cousy, BOS

I don't remember who won it in later years (since the real award exists), but they gave it out into the late 60s at least.

So just piggy backing:

No official NBA MVPs in those years.
Davis award seems the closest thing to that.
Wanzer is referenced as an MVP in places, but whether this was another unofficial award, or confusion is unclear.
Wanzer is not the only case where there's confusion like this, as I've said, I've seen both Bob Davies and Al Cervi credited as NBL MVP in '46-47, but they are never credited together. Sources either say one or the other.

I'd disagree with the phrasing on '47.

I've seen Davies not Cervi, e.g. Bradley, 2nd ed, 2010, p65

25Mar47 Bob Davies of Rochester is named NBL Most Valuable Player

I'm not sure if I've seen Cervi without Davies ... I don't think I have.
But I'd say I've seen both in what I'd call the same place e.g. The Official NBA Basketball Encyclopedia Chapter 9 "The Hall of Fame" p350 and 351. [edit: this refers the the '89 Hollander and Sachare, 1st edition]

I've seen Cervi listed without Davies (here's on article, but if you've seen both listed in the same place, I stand corrected there.

AEnigma wrote:I was rhetorically trying to illustrate that there is no cause to believe there was a 1953 one-off MVP and anything suggesting otherwise as it pertains to Wanzer is either in error or referencing something well outside the mainstream.

Funny how Johnston could earn (a semi-official) MVP on a 29-win team.

Well the Hall had it on their website the last time that I looked (I wasn't aware until now it had changed) so I don't think that "no cause" as far as NBA historical sources.

I don't see why honestly and openly taking a position might not have been more, well open and honest.

I don't claim to know and probably err marginally on the doubtful side (Bradley doesn't have it) but at the same time as I said it should be the Hall's wheelhouse, multiple basketball Encyclopedias have cited it and "no cause" is very absolute language. "One-off" does seem weird though so, to be honest, as noted above, does having an official "Rookie of the Year" but no "Player of the Year"/MVP.

Doctor MJ wrote:

Owly wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:
So just piggy backing:

No official NBA MVPs in those years.
Davis award seems the closest thing to that.
Wanzer is referenced as an MVP in places, but whether this was another unofficial award, or confusion is unclear.
Wanzer is not the only case where there's confusion like this, as I've said, I've seen both Bob Davies and Al Cervi credited as NBL MVP in '46-47, but they are never credited together. Sources either say one or the other.

I'd disagree with the phrasing on '47.

I've seen Davies not Cervi, e.g. Bradley, 2nd ed, 2010, p65

25Mar47 Bob Davies of Rochester is named NBL Most Valuable Player

I'm not sure if I've seen Cervi without Davies ... I don't think I have.
But I'd say I've seen both in what I'd call the same place e.g. The Official NBA Basketball Encyclopedia Chapter 9 "The Hall of Fame" p350 and 351. [edit: this refers the the '89 Hollander and Sachare, 1st edition]

I've seen Cervi listed without Davies (here's on article, but if you've seen both listed in the same place, I stand corrected there.

Thanks for sharing.
That is a listing of just Cervi.

It's one where listing Davies might be odd ... it's not a source about MVPs or great players ... I suppose if were "co-MVPs" then they could put it in that way. The thing is there isn't an analogous ESPN obit for Davies so ... it's a unique piece ... we can't know if a Davies equivalent would have the same (my suspicion is it would have Davies as MVP).

It absolutely is a source uniquely citing Cervi but I would say in an expected manner given the context and perhaps itself from a source - I'd guess it's from the Hall - that has cited both (and latterly only Davies).

Owly wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:

Owly wrote:I'd disagree with the phrasing on '47.

I've seen Davies not Cervi, e.g. Bradley, 2nd ed, 2010, p65

I'm not sure if I've seen Cervi without Davies ... I don't think I have.
But I'd say I've seen both in what I'd call the same place e.g. The Official NBA Basketball Encyclopedia Chapter 9 "The Hall of Fame" p350 and 351. [edit: this refers the the '89 Hollander and Sachare, 1st edition]

I've seen Cervi listed without Davies (here's on article, but if you've seen both listed in the same place, I stand corrected there.

Thanks for sharing.
That is a listing of just Cervi.

It's one where listing Davies might be odd ... it's not a source about MVPs or great players ... I suppose if were "co-MVPs" then they could put it in that way. The thing is there isn't an analogous ESPN obit for Davies so ... it's a unique piece ... we can't know if a Davies equivalent would have the same (my suspicion is it would have Davies as MVP).

It absolutely is a source uniquely citing Cervi but I would say in an expected manner given the context and perhaps itself from a source - I'd guess it's from the Hall - that has cited both (and latterly only Davies).

Here's another from the book "The Sacramento Kings" by Mark Stewart in 2009. Page 40 lists Cervi as MVP but not Davies.

Doctor MJ wrote:

Owly wrote:

Doctor MJ wrote:
I've seen Cervi listed without Davies (here's on article, but if you've seen both listed in the same place, I stand corrected there.

Thanks for sharing.
That is a listing of just Cervi.

It's one where listing Davies might be odd ... it's not a source about MVPs or great players ... I suppose if were "co-MVPs" then they could put it in that way. The thing is there isn't an analogous ESPN obit for Davies so ... it's a unique piece ... we can't know if a Davies equivalent would have the same (my suspicion is it would have Davies as MVP).

It absolutely is a source uniquely citing Cervi but I would say in an expected manner given the context and perhaps itself from a source - I'd guess it's from the Hall - that has cited both (and latterly only Davies).

Here's another from the book "The Sacramento Kings" by Mark Stewart in 2009. Page 40 lists Cervi as MVP but not Davies.

Thanks.

Whilst I still tend to regard Davies sources more authoritative this is a context that bypasses my ... concerns? ... caveats? ... about the previous citing. This is a context where if the author believed or had sources saying both ... there's no reason not to cite both.

Vote 1 - James Worthy
Vote 2 - Chet Walker

Worthy was quite talented offensively. Used a combination of length and speed with a great first step to make extremely quick finishes around the basket. Great finisher off the catch as well and had a nice array of post moves for a bit of a hybrid forward. Just amazing ball control taking advantage of his athleticism.

Definitely played to his strengths, which is even more important when you're helping a team make deep playoff runs every season. Elevated his play in the playoffs, which does make me question his regular season play a bit, but not going to knock a guy for playing better in the post season. Whether or not he deserved finals MVP in '88 is up for debate, but the hyper efficient 36 point triple double in the game 7 clincher is more than impressive on its own.

Thread 100. Been a long project. Around the mid-40's, I got swamped at work like never before and dropped off the radar for a while (plus I didn't have very strong opinions on the nominees vis-a-vis being #47 or #48), but I've kept reading the whole time. Good to see most threads made it to at least page #3, so interest stayed pretty high the whole way through.

For thread 100, I'll do what I said I would and vote for Cliff Hagan, for his being nominated for almost 40 threads and given that how you view his era could make him worthy of being significantly higher or lower, so #100 doesn't seem wrong for a guy with a big contribution to a championship.

Vote: Cliff Hagan