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Who's better?

Peak for peak its somewhat close imo. If it's more prime vs prime it leans more towards Clyde(along with him leading teams way further into the playoffs).

I think Vince was better at basketball but Drexler stood out more when he played and had a much more notable career. Swap their positions and I would expect Vince to have marginally more success with the Blazers/Rockets than what Drexler had.

AEnigma wrote:I think Vince was better at basketball but Drexler stood out more when he played and had a much more notable career. Swap their positions and I would expect Vince to have marginally more success with the Blazers/Rockets than what Drexler had.

I think Vince had more native talent. I think Drexler was the better player. He was certainly the better defender, and you can make a pretty reasonable argument that he had the better scoring peak as well.

Vince was definitely more fun to watch when he was on his game, though.

Drexler.

Drexler. Took his Blazers to the Finals twice and finished MVP runner up to Jordan in 1991-92. Those two things alone put him above Vince.

Carter probably had more overall talent but he frustratingly used very little of it. He's the epitome of an underachiever who never realized his full potential

Hair Jordan wrote:Drexler. Took his Blazers to the Finals twice and finished MVP runner up to Jordan in 1991-92. Those two things alone put him above Vince.

Without a deep dive I too would be inclined to instinctively take Drexler for career.

That said saying the above "alone" put him ahead ... whilst one is entitled to ones own criteria ...

"2nd to MJ" in a voted award ... he's very good but field isn't great ... Robinson would probably have taken 2nd but for his injury (and was certainly a better player). Olajuwon is on an average and in this instance non-playoff team. K Malone is having what would be his 8th best RS by PER or 9th by BPM or 7th by WS/48 (and his isn't as elite a peak as the prior names). Ewing ... isn't "bad" by his standards but has a lower peak than most of these guys to start with, is down from '90 and has some superficial things going against him in that his usage and team pace are down from the previous year (team not really contender level if that's superficial wrt to player rating too).

On the "[taking] his Blazers to the Finals" ... for one thing that's a team level achievement and in the case of '90 in particular ... Portland win two series in which they are outscored. And fwiw it is unclear in the two trickier series in which they advance, whether Drexler is the best Blazer in either (very quick glance I'd be inclined towards Porter in both). So even if getting to the finals is a driver of ratings, Drexler as the "taker" is unclear.

As I said to each their own ... for me, I don't think these things by themselves are a sufficient basis to rank one player over another.

Owly wrote:

Hair Jordan wrote:Drexler. Took his Blazers to the Finals twice and finished MVP runner up to Jordan in 1991-92. Those two things alone put him above Vince.

Without a deep dive I too would be inclined to instinctively take Drexler for career.

That said saying the above "alone" put him ahead ... whilst one is entitled to ones own criteria ...

"2nd to MJ" in a voted award ... he's very good but field isn't great ... Robinson would probably have taken 2nd but for his injury (and was certainly a better player). Olajuwon is on an average and in this instance non-playoff team. K Malone is having what would be his 8th best RS by PER or 9th by BPM or 7th by WS/48 (and and isn't as elite a peak as the prior names). Ewing ... isn't "bad" by his standards but has a lower peak than most of these guys to start with, is down from '90 and has some superficial things going against him in that his usage and team pace are down from the previous year (team not really contender level if that's superficial wrt to player rating too).

On the "[taking] his Blazers to the Finals" ... for one thing that's a team level achievement and in the case of '90 in particular ... Portland win two series in which they are outscored. And fwiw it is unclear in the two trickier series in which they advance, whether Drexler is the best Blazer in either (very quick glance I'd be inclined towards Porter in both). So even if getting to the finals is a driver of ratings, Drexler as the "taker" is unclear.

As I said to each their own ... for me, I don't think these things by themselves are a sufficient basis to rank one player over another.

I'd like to see your evidence of this. Malone wasn't the shotblocker or defender that Jordan, Robinson and Olajuwon were, but his scoring was arguably better, at first glance without looking deep into it. Likely his passing was better than those two as well. Both Robinson and Olajuwon missed the playoffs as well and Malone had a great PS performance while reaching the wcf.

migya wrote:

Owly wrote:

Hair Jordan wrote:Drexler. Took his Blazers to the Finals twice and finished MVP runner up to Jordan in 1991-92. Those two things alone put him above Vince.

Without a deep dive I too would be inclined to instinctively take Drexler for career.

That said saying the above "alone" put him ahead ... whilst one is entitled to ones own criteria ...

"2nd to MJ" in a voted award ... he's very good but field isn't great ... Robinson would probably have taken 2nd but for his injury (and was certainly a better player). Olajuwon is on an average and in this instance non-playoff team. K Malone is having what would be his 8th best RS by PER or 9th by BPM or 7th by WS/48 (and and isn't as elite a peak as the prior names). Ewing ... isn't "bad" by his standards but has a lower peak than most of these guys to start with, is down from '90 and has some superficial things going against him in that his usage and team pace are down from the previous year (team not really contender level if that's superficial wrt to player rating too).

On the "[taking] his Blazers to the Finals" ... for one thing that's a team level achievement and in the case of '90 in particular ... Portland win two series in which they are outscored. And fwiw it is unclear in the two trickier series in which they advance, whether Drexler is the best Blazer in either (very quick glance I'd be inclined towards Porter in both). So even if getting to the finals is a driver of ratings, Drexler as the "taker" is unclear.

As I said to each their own ... for me, I don't think these things by themselves are a sufficient basis to rank one player over another.

I'd like to see your evidence of this. Malone wasn't the shotblocker or defender that Jordan, Robinson and Olajuwon were, but his scoring was arguably better, at first glance without looking deep into it. Likely his passing was better than those two as well. Both Robinson and Olajuwon missed the playoffs as well and Malone had a great PS performance while reaching the wcf.

Don't think you've umderstood.

Fwiw to reiterate, regarding the bolded

1) The evidence of where that season ranks for him is on Basketball-Reference
2) (in light of point one that this isn't his peak) his peak isn't as high as Jordan, Robinson and Olajuwon. Yeah it just isn't. It isn't as productive as Robinson or Jordan, it doesn't have the impact signal of Robinson (especially given collinearity ... Jordan ... IDK about what data one wants to trust, some seem taken with the Squared numbers ... for RAPM side stuff for a single season I think you need everyone's data ... haven't looked closely and don't think the source data is out but presumably the underlying stuff is pretty good though per above I'm not relying strongly on that). Versus Olajuwon you could get to a small RS box productivity win ... but defense and playoffs would tend to ... more than make up for that. That being the case even if it isn't the typical dropoff/gap from a best season to a circa 8th best season ... he can't afford a "drop" from peak as much as those others can.

I did put and twice rather than "his" in the original post - will edit this in now for clarity, with these quotes showing the original post - but not sure anyone would think of '92 as "peak" for any of the three.

Owly wrote:

migya wrote:

Owly wrote:Without a deep dive I too would be inclined to instinctively take Drexler for career.

That said saying the above "alone" put him ahead ... whilst one is entitled to ones own criteria ...

"2nd to MJ" in a voted award ... he's very good but field isn't great ... Robinson would probably have taken 2nd but for his injury (and was certainly a better player). Olajuwon is on an average and in this instance non-playoff team. K Malone is having what would be his 8th best RS by PER or 9th by BPM or 7th by WS/48 (and and isn't as elite a peak as the prior names). Ewing ... isn't "bad" by his standards but has a lower peak than most of these guys to start with, is down from '90 and has some superficial things going against him in that his usage and team pace are down from the previous year (team not really contender level if that's superficial wrt to player rating too).

On the "[taking] his Blazers to the Finals" ... for one thing that's a team level achievement and in the case of '90 in particular ... Portland win two series in which they are outscored. And fwiw it is unclear in the two trickier series in which they advance, whether Drexler is the best Blazer in either (very quick glance I'd be inclined towards Porter in both). So even if getting to the finals is a driver of ratings, Drexler as the "taker" is unclear.

As I said to each their own ... for me, I don't think these things by themselves are a sufficient basis to rank one player over another.

I'd like to see your evidence of this. Malone wasn't the shotblocker or defender that Jordan, Robinson and Olajuwon were, but his scoring was arguably better, at first glance without looking deep into it. Likely his passing was better than those two as well. Both Robinson and Olajuwon missed the playoffs as well and Malone had a great PS performance while reaching the wcf.

Don't think you've umderstood.

Fwiw to reiterate, regarding the bolded

1) The evidence of where that season ranks for him is on Basketball-Reference
2) (in light of point one that this isn't his peak) his peak isn't as high as Jordan, Robinson and Olajuwon. Yeah it just isn't. It isn't as productive as Robinson or Jordan, it doesn't have the impact signal of Robinson (especially given collinearity ... Jordan ... IDK about what data one wants to trust, some seem taken with the Squared numbers ... for RAPM side stuff for a single season I think you need everyone's data ... haven't looked closely and don't think the source data is out but presumably the underlying stuff is pretty good though per above I'm not relying strongly on that). Versus Olajuwon you could get to a small RS box productivity win ... but defense and playoffs would tend to ... more than make up for that. That being the case even if it isn't the typical dropoff/gap from a best season to a circa 8th best season ... he can't afford a "drop" from peak as much as those others can.

I did put and twice rather than "his" in the original post - will edit this in now for clarity, with these quotes showing the original post - but not sure anyone would think of '92 as "peak" for any of the three.

The context is the 1992 season, and that is what you referred to in comparison with the mentioned players. I cited Malone's 1992 season, which was very good both RS and PS, and was better than both Robinson and Olajuwon, Drexler also. Could be argued he was second best that season to Jordan.

migya wrote:

Owly wrote:

migya wrote:

I'd like to see your evidence of this. Malone wasn't the shotblocker or defender that Jordan, Robinson and Olajuwon were, but his scoring was arguably better, at first glance without looking deep into it. Likely his passing was better than those two as well. Both Robinson and Olajuwon missed the playoffs as well and Malone had a great PS performance while reaching the wcf.

Don't think you've umderstood.

Fwiw to reiterate, regarding the bolded

1) The evidence of where that season ranks for him is on Basketball-Reference
2) (in light of point one that this isn't his peak) his peak isn't as high as Jordan, Robinson and Olajuwon. Yeah it just isn't. It isn't as productive as Robinson or Jordan, it doesn't have the impact signal of Robinson (especially given collinearity ... Jordan ... IDK about what data one wants to trust, some seem taken with the Squared numbers ... for RAPM side stuff for a single season I think you need everyone's data ... haven't looked closely and don't think the source data is out but presumably the underlying stuff is pretty good though per above I'm not relying strongly on that). Versus Olajuwon you could get to a small RS box productivity win ... but defense and playoffs would tend to ... more than make up for that. That being the case even if it isn't the typical dropoff/gap from a best season to a circa 8th best season ... he can't afford a "drop" from peak as much as those others can.

I did put and twice rather than "his" in the original post - will edit this in now for clarity, with these quotes showing the original post - but not sure anyone would think of '92 as "peak" for any of the three.

The context is the 1992 season, and that is what you referred to in comparison with the mentioned players. I cited Malone's 1992 season, which was very good both RS and PS, and was better than both Robinson and Olajuwon, Drexler also. Could be argued he was second best that season to Jordan.

Re bolded I'm not following. I referred to the specific seasons with regard to '92. I referred to peaks when I compared Malone's peak to those of aforementioned players (Jordan, Robinson, Olajuwon).

If don't know what to tell you at this point ... I argued that the field isn't that tough ... Malone is part of that field. If one of your best competitors is in their circa 8th best season and they aren't a truly exceptional peak guy (don't want to go too harsh with this - but in the context of the names mentioned) to begin with.

You didn't seem to understand so I reiterated my point to make it absolutely clear.

If you want to say Malone was second ... maybe (he has one of his best playoff runs fwiw) ... the reason he was brought up was he was a plausible contender (looking mainly at mainstream picks) for that slot. For individual seasons criteria will vary anyhow (what to do with Robinson given his injury takes him out of round 1 and approx circa half of round two if early prognosis was to be believed, for instance). ... That Malone in his circa 8th best season is up there for 2nd only reiterates my point regarding competition for 2nd (particularly in the RS, where the MVP ballot discussed is based).

But this is both a tangent and not seemingly going anywhere so I'm out.

SportsGuru08 wrote:Carter probably had more overall talent but he frustratingly used very little of it. He's the epitome of an underachiever who never realized his full potential

As a Raptor fan, I remember all the rumours circulating about Carter being lazy and a diva but it's actually not true. Members of our former management actually destroyed Carter's reputation to force him out but he's actually always been super dedicated to training and loyal to our organization. A true professional that got a bad rep just because people in our organization including former GM Rob Babcock were jealous of the attention he got and hated him. That's why he also hated us after the trade to the Nets and always played at 200% when facing us. Intangibles wise, he and Drexler are both cream of the crop. As for overall better player, I'd say Drexler because he did things other than scoring better than VC including passing and defense although Carter is underrated as an all-around player and was even a really good 3pt shooter so the gap isn't wide.

Djoker wrote:

SportsGuru08 wrote:Carter probably had more overall talent but he frustratingly used very little of it. He's the epitome of an underachiever who never realized his full potential

As a Raptor fan, I remember all the rumours circulating about Carter being lazy and a diva but it's actually not true. Members of our former management actually destroyed Carter's reputation to force him out but he's actually always been super dedicated to training and loyal to our organization. A true professional that got a bad rep just because people in our organization including former GM Rob Babcock were jealous of the attention he got and hated him. That's why he also hated us after the trade to the Nets and always played at 200% when facing us. Intangibles wise, he and Drexler are both cream of the crop. As for overall better player, I'd say Drexler because he did things other than scoring better than VC including passing and defense although Carter is underrated as an all-around player and was even a really good 3pt shooter so the gap isn't wide.

Vince had health issues. Vince had "shooting more threes than we liked" issues, though in many seasons he was quite good, especially for his era. He wasn't an awesome playmaker as a Raptor, though he developed his passing over time and certainly wasn't bad.

I think his biggest "sin" as an offensive player, if we're to call it that, is that he struggled when the 3 wasn't falling and he couldn't get to the rim. He used the middle spaces more in his first couple seasons, then got away from it to go "rim or long jumper." Of course, we used to post him up at the elbow in his first couple seasons and he could just burst past people to attack the rim, so there's that. If Carter had an offensive game more like SGA, we would have had a little bit different a profile during his stay here, I suspect. And if he were better on D. But whatever, he was pretty good for us, hella exciting and the Raptors franchise had its own sins at the time, too. I mean, the best team we put around him was Antonio Davis, Keon Clark, Jerome Williams, Alvin Williams, Chris Childs, Dell Curry, Mo Pete and Charles "I love throwing behind-the-back passes off my ass and out of bounds" Oakley at the end of his career. Not a bad set of roleplayers for the putrid and depth-absent early 2000s, but certainly lacking any kind of real offensive support.

Owly wrote:

migya wrote:

Owly wrote:Don't think you've umderstood.

Fwiw to reiterate, regarding the bolded

1) The evidence of where that season ranks for him is on Basketball-Reference
2) (in light of point one that this isn't his peak) his peak isn't as high as Jordan, Robinson and Olajuwon. Yeah it just isn't. It isn't as productive as Robinson or Jordan, it doesn't have the impact signal of Robinson (especially given collinearity ... Jordan ... IDK about what data one wants to trust, some seem taken with the Squared numbers ... for RAPM side stuff for a single season I think you need everyone's data ... haven't looked closely and don't think the source data is out but presumably the underlying stuff is pretty good though per above I'm not relying strongly on that). Versus Olajuwon you could get to a small RS box productivity win ... but defense and playoffs would tend to ... more than make up for that. That being the case even if it isn't the typical dropoff/gap from a best season to a circa 8th best season ... he can't afford a "drop" from peak as much as those others can.

I did put and twice rather than "his" in the original post - will edit this in now for clarity, with these quotes showing the original post - but not sure anyone would think of '92 as "peak" for any of the three.

The context is the 1992 season, and that is what you referred to in comparison with the mentioned players. I cited Malone's 1992 season, which was very good both RS and PS, and was better than both Robinson and Olajuwon, Drexler also. Could be argued he was second best that season to Jordan.

Re bolded I'm not following. I referred to the specific seasons with regard to '92. I referred to peaks when I compared Malone's peak to those of aforementioned players (Jordan, Robinson, Olajuwon).

If don't know what to tell you at this point ... I argued that the field isn't that tough ... Malone is part of that field. If one of your best competitors is in their circa 8th best season and they aren't a truly exceptional peak guy (don't want to go too harsh with this - but in the context of the names mentioned) to begin with.

You didn't seem to understand so I reiterated my point to make it absolutely clear.

If you want to say Malone was second ... maybe (he has one of his best playoff runs fwiw) ... the reason he was brought up was he was a plausible contender (looking mainly at mainstream picks) for that slot. For individual seasons criteria will vary anyhow (what to do with Robinson given his injury takes him out of round 1 and approx circa half of round two if early prognosis was to be believed, for instance). ... That Malone in his circa 8th best season is up there for 2nd only reiterates my point regarding competition for 2nd (particularly in the RS, where the MVP ballot discussed is based).

But this is both a tangent and not seemingly going anywhere so I'm out.

If you think that season, 1992, wasn't "high in competition", as in the best players that season didn't have very good seasons, there's no point in conversing on this.

Malone RS - 28pts, 11.2rebs, 59.9ts%, 5.7bpm, (37.4pts, 15rebs per 100 poss)
PS - 29.1pts, 11.3rebs, 61.8ts, 6.5bpm, (36.1pts, 14rebs per 100 poss)

Robinson RS - 23.2pts, 12.2rebs, 2.3stl, 4.5blk, 59.7ts, 9.4bpm, (30.7pts, 16.1reb, 3.5stl, 3.1blk per 100 poss)

Olajuwon RS - 21.6pts, 12.1reb, 1.8stl, 4.3blk, 55.3ts, 5bpm, (28.9pts, 16.2reb, 2.4stl, 5.8blk per 100 poss)

Barkley RS - 23.1pts, 11.1reb, 4.1ast, 61.2ts%, 6.3bpm (30.8pts, 14.8reb, 5.5ast per 100 poss)


Can't be bothered listing the rest but Mullin and Hardaway of GS had arguably their best seasons and Ewing was in his prime with very good production on both ends.

Drexler by a lot. A big lot. This question almost made me feel sick.

I didn't click in that thread or notice who started it, but I can't help but think if this comes from the same (hive?) mind as the Sheed/Nique thread. In any case, there is an obvious parallel.

tsherkin wrote:

Djoker wrote:

SportsGuru08 wrote:Carter probably had more overall talent but he frustratingly used very little of it. He's the epitome of an underachiever who never realized his full potential

As a Raptor fan, I remember all the rumours circulating about Carter being lazy and a diva but it's actually not true. Members of our former management actually destroyed Carter's reputation to force him out but he's actually always been super dedicated to training and loyal to our organization. A true professional that got a bad rep just because people in our organization including former GM Rob Babcock were jealous of the attention he got and hated him. That's why he also hated us after the trade to the Nets and always played at 200% when facing us. Intangibles wise, he and Drexler are both cream of the crop. As for overall better player, I'd say Drexler because he did things other than scoring better than VC including passing and defense although Carter is underrated as an all-around player and was even a really good 3pt shooter so the gap isn't wide.

Vince had health issues. Vince had "shooting more threes than we liked" issues, though in many seasons he was quite good, especially for his era. He wasn't an awesome playmaker as a Raptor, though he developed his passing over time and certainly wasn't bad.

I think his biggest "sin" as an offensive player, if we're to call it that, is that he struggled when the 3 wasn't falling and he couldn't get to the rim. He used the middle spaces more in his first couple seasons, then got away from it to go "rim or long jumper." Of course, we used to post him up at the elbow in his first couple seasons and he could just burst past people to attack the rim, so there's that. If Carter had an offensive game more like SGA, we would have had a little bit different a profile during his stay here, I suspect. And if he were better on D. But whatever, he was pretty good for us, hella exciting and the Raptors franchise had its own sins at the time, too. I mean, the best team we put around him was Antonio Davis, Keon Clark, Jerome Williams, Alvin Williams, Chris Childs, Dell Curry, Mo Pete and Charles "I love throwing behind-the-back passes off my ass and out of bounds" Oakley at the end of his career. Not a bad set of roleplayers for the putrid and depth-absent early 2000s, but certainly lacking any kind of real offensive support.

Toronto Vince Carter up to the injuries is pretty damn underrated. The roster and the coaching was pretty horrific in terms of how they used him. Just floppy and down screens into ISOs from long 2 region. Which given the fact that our second best player was a center who shot 43% from the field.

His "skill set" especially in todays environment would have made him like uniquely one of the best players in the league. His lack of handle and his lob threat and shooting ability off the catch, and his basic mid post game made him an off-ball demon which I find quite valuable in terms of portability. He honestly never played with a really good on ball threat his entire career. His wingspan, strength and athleticism already showed statistically as a way above average rim protector from a wing. That switchability which he showed later in his career made him a very valuable defender in Jersey and Dallas if he was used that way in Toronto. He'd basically be a more offensively talented Jayson Tatum with his quicker first step and better shooting, similar weaknesses.

His statistical signal was off the charts top 5 in BPM over those years and +15 on-off.

On the "dogging it" thing

Don't recall the details well, think Hollinger suggested he was ... will say the optics on the numbers/splits for '05 aren't great ... using PER because it isn't really using team results like WS/48, BPM ... 17.0 in 20 games in Toronto (would be career worst to that point and wortst until 2011 age 34 season) 24.5 in NJ (would be second only to his '01 25.0 peak) ...

Other things can be at play in terms of health, shooting luck, motivation from context isn't necessarily all on him. It's just notable in terms of in-season trade/team change in terms of production disparity (can't think of any larger or like it otoh, within the same league at least, in either direction - Jim McDaniels gets much worse coming to the NBA from ABA ... trying to think of other possible falls McAdoo drops off from NY to Boston).

That being said using non-minute weighted, average of game BPMs in terms of circa 20 game splits using the trade and then the Reference dividers (so his 20 Tor games, then his games 21-37, 38-57, 58-77) in response to looking back at Hollinger's profile of him noting his final 20 games (also "playing at about four percent of his ability" in Toronto) as the best in the league the splits are interesting

Q1: 2.145
Q2: 2.958823529
Q3: 6.895
Q4: 10.695

Those buckets, per above aren't all the exact same size (expanding Q2 out one extra game at the end would make it worse though) ... those numbers don't look like the big difference is Toronto versus not Toronto ... this is only one metric etc.

JLei wrote:Toronto Vince Carter up to the injuries is pretty damn underrated. The roster and the coaching was pretty horrific in terms of how they used him. Just floppy and down screens into ISOs from long 2 region. Which given the fact that our second best player was a center who shot 43% from the field.

Especially in 2001, he was amazing, yes. He was starting to get there in 2000 as well. He was just... meaner and more aggressive in all the most useful and best ways. We certainly didn't have hot support for him. His best play was basically iso at the elbow, for sure, and Antonio Davis was not a hot secondary weapon, no doubt.

He would be very good in today's league regardless, it's just that his lack of a live-dribble game after 1 or 2 bounces would be a limitation to him hitting the very top tier. But yeah, 00 and 01 were pretty incredible, and then he figured himself out to some extent with New Jersey and after.