RealGM

Defense only, who is the more impactful player?

Kobe on average

Kobe is imo a extremely overated defender by media with all the D-awards

But jokic, while fine in some matchups/situstions can be a outright negative in others imo which is a fairly big issue for a center compared to a guard

According to Long Term RAPM the answer is clearly Jokic https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WMfP-GVHXCjPfp2sMnBjWB301OtO3LO7n-EKoBSl-iQ/edit

At their defensive peaks? Their defensive primes?

I don't think Kobe's best defense was played during his prime as a player at all.

Jokic isn’t checking prime Wade 94 feet up the court, that’s all I know

rk2023 wrote:Jokic isn’t checking prime Wade 94 feet up the court, that’s all I know

Kobe didn't do stuff like that every game, or even all game, either, so it's somewhat moot.

tsherkin wrote:

rk2023 wrote:Jokic isn’t checking prime Wade 94 feet up the court, that’s all I know

Kobe didn't do stuff like that every game, or even all game, either, so it's somewhat moot.

Was tongue in cheek haha, I usually try to be a positive contributor - but sometimes it’s fun to joke around

My answer would be Kobe in seriousness (much more clear looking at 1999/2000), but I would not consider either a needle mover on that end

rk2023 wrote:Was tongue in cheek haha, I usually try to be a positive contributor - but sometimes it’s fun to joke around

Ah, fair enough. My bad.

Clearly Kobe albeit neither are anything to write home about.

Is this a serious thread? Kobe's one of the best defensive players in history and Jokic is a sieve.

First three-peat Kobe was a pretty pesky guard defender, damn near devastating in his early 20's. Obviously not consistent like Prime Wade but that's definitely something which is more you can say than Joker unless you really like his rebounding.

LakerLegend wrote:Is this a serious thread? Kobe's one of the best defensive players in history and Jokic is a sieve.

Kobe is likely outside of top 100 players in the league history.

That doesn't change the fact that he's my choice in this thread, but still...

LakerLegend wrote:Is this a serious thread? Kobe's one of the best defensive players in history and Jokic is a sieve.

Neither of these things are true.

LakerLegend wrote:Is this a serious thread? Kobe's one of the best defensive players in history and Jokic is a sieve.

These are both fairly inaccurate.

Jokic rebounds well but I count rebounding as a 3rd category that is not defense or offense.

I don’t think Jokic is a better defender than the average starting center.

Kobe may not have always tried hard on defense when Kobe was carrying the offense but when Kobe tried hard on defense Kobe was a very good defender.

SinceGatlingWasARookie wrote:Jokic rebounds well but I count rebounding as a 3rd category that is not defense or offense.

It is objectively wrong to completely remove defensive rebounding from defense, as it literally ends an offensive possession. Obviously something you weight, of course, since it isn't the same sort of thing as shot defense. But it's still very clearly A component of defense.

When most of the pressure came from a single opponent wing player Kobe might have been more impactful. When having been committed, that is, which was not a sure guarantee. His overall defense had always been overrated (for example due to his tendency of having watched the ball-leading player too much and losing his assigned opponent).

Otherwise than that, it's Jokic. Just the nature of the game: A big man has more impact on his team's defense, and even though Jokic is far from being a great defender, he's OK as he's overall a player with positive impact.

LakerLegend wrote:Is this a serious thread? Kobe's one of the best defensive players in history and Jokic is a sieve.

This.

Special_Puppy wrote:According to Long Term RAPM the answer is clearly Jokic https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1WMfP-GVHXCjPfp2sMnBjWB301OtO3LO7n-EKoBSl-iQ/edit

Unbelievable lmao.

McBubbles wrote:

LakerLegend wrote:Is this a serious thread? Kobe's one of the best defensive players in history and Jokic is a sieve.

Neither of these things are true.

Unbelievable. Yall are just lying to yourselves at this point. Jokic f****ing sucks at defense. Yall need to give it up. He is not good at defense