Where does Kawhi Rank among Non-big Post Players

[OhayoKD]

How many non-bigs historically have a post-game you would take over Kawhi's?

[70sFan]

Too many to count to be honest.

[OhayoKD]

Too many to count to be honest.

???

What 10 non-bigs would you take over Kawhi here?

[penbeast0]

Dantley is first on almost any list. Maybe Barkley if you consider him a non-big (he is only about 6'4 and played next to traditional PF types like AC Green though mainly a PF). A bunch of guys like Bernard King get into the mix too.

[DorianRo]

At full health and fully motivated I always believed he would be top 10 of all time as a player.. Lazy bastard he is though.. If you gave Leonard MJ/Kobe's brain, he would have been possibly GOAT.. Hes a scary good player when he wants to be.. I wish he would have stayed with Pop and play with Victor now. That would have been awesome

[Mikee Lowry]

Are you including 7 footer kd

[OhayoKD]

Are you including 7 footer kd

Yes, though it's an odd shout when they played at the same time and Kawhi was better as a post presence in pretty much every way(playmaking, scoring, defending)

[Mikee Lowry]

At full health and fully motivated I always believed he would be top 10 of all time as a player.. Lazy bastard he is though.. If you gave Leonard MJ/Kobe's brain, he would have been possibly GOAT.. Hes a scary good player when he wants to be.. I wish he would have stayed with Pop and play with Victor now. That would have been awesome

We’ve seen health issues interfere with the careers of so many all time greats; you cant get mad at someone for not being as lucky as mike and kobe

[OhayoKD]

At full health and fully motivated I always believed he would be top 10 of all time as a player.. Lazy bastard he is though.. If you gave Leonard MJ/Kobe's brain, he would have been possibly GOAT.. Hes a scary good player when he wants to be.. I wish he would have stayed with Pop and play with Victor now. That would have been awesome

We’ve seen health issues interfere with the careers of so many all time greats; you cant get mad at someone for not being as lucky as mike and kobe

If we're being honest, Kawhi's shown a greater commitment to winning than either

[EmpireFalls]

Just from second tier players:

Mark Jackson GOAT
Dantley close second
BD, D Will, Miller, Livingston, a few other guards come to mind.

Out of ATGs (who had much more elevated effectiveness and thus didn’t need to lean on the post much):
Bron post 2011 for sure. He actually has an argument over Kawhi tbh. Post retirement MJ obviously. Russ, Magic, the Big O, Kidd, Kobe, CP3

[Mikee Lowry]

Dantley is first on almost any list. Maybe Barkley if you consider him a non-big (he is only about 6'4 and played next to traditional PF types like AC Green though mainly a PF). A bunch of guys like Bernard King get into the mix too.

Despite how productive he was during his time period dantley wasn’t as skilled as a difficult shotmaker or creating with his back to the basket

[OhayoKD]

Just from second tier players:

Mark Jackson GOAT
Dantley close second
BD, D Will, Miller, Livingston, a few other guards come to mind.

Out of ATGs (who had much more elevated effectiveness and thus didn’t need to lean on the post much):
Bron post 2011 for sure. He actually has an argument over Kawhi tbh. Russ, Magic, the Big O, Kidd, Kobe, CP3

Huh?

Dantley is first on almost any list. Maybe Barkley if you consider him a non-big (he is only about 6'4 and played next to traditional PF types like AC Green though mainly a PF). A bunch of guys like Bernard King get into the mix too.

Despite how productive he was during his time period dantley wasn’t as skilled as a difficult shotmaker or creating with his back to the basket

Yeah, putting Dantley over kawhi is probably a reach. He wasn't nearly as strong, his passing/processing speed is worse, and his handles were far more limited. And let's not even get started with defense. Dantley, like a lot of middy guys from that era opted for leaners. He isn't rising up and hitting fades and modern defenses would exploit that.

Also not really sure what all these guard mentions are for, save for Magic. Being smart at exploiting the gaps is not the same as creating the gaps.

[penbeast0]

Dantley is first on almost any list. Maybe Barkley if you consider him a non-big (he is only about 6'4 and played next to traditional PF types like AC Green though mainly a PF). A bunch of guys like Bernard King get into the mix too.

Despite how productive he was during his time period dantley wasn’t as skilled as a difficult shotmaker or creating with his back to the basket

No, he was a face up midpost scorer, still the post. And he had a lot more fakes and hesitation/pump moves than Kawhi has shown which made it very difficult to time him. However, even if he had none, he was more productive relative to his peers than Kawhi as a post scorer. Kawhi has him on everything else other than staying on the floor (defense, rebounding, ballhandling, etc.), but as I tell Hakeem fans, it's not about how pretty your shot is, it's about the production you create with it.

[penbeast0]

...

Yeah, putting Dantley over kawhi is probably a reach. He wasn't nearly as strong, his passing/processing speed is worse, and his handles were far more limited. And let's not even get started with defense. Dantley, like a lot of middy guys from that era opted for leaners. He isn't rising up and hitting fades and modern defenses would exploit that.

Also not really sure what all these guard mentions are for, save for Magic. Being smart at exploiting the gaps is not the same as creating the gaps.

Is the OP talking about post scoring or overall play because if he's talking about overall play then he's saying Kawhi is better than Jordan/LeBron, etc. and I don't think that's going to fly either. Pure scoring efficiency and volume from the post, Dantley is the GOAT even if that's all he provides that's significant.

As for whether someone would magically have counters to defenses that weren't around in his day, you can only play the opposition you are given so I really don't see why that's important even if it were true.

[OhayoKD]

Is the OP talking about post scoring or overall play because if he's talking about overall play then he's saying Kawhi is better than Jordan/LeBron, etc. and I don't think that's going to fly either. Pure scoring efficiency and volume from the post, Dantley is the GOAT even if that's all he provides that's significant.

It's overall post play which Jordan is not a match for either in.

Dantley has the in-era scoring but his defense and playmaking from there is much worse than Leonard, and for reasons outlined I don't see his scoring transferring that well either.

[penbeast0]

It's overall post play which Jordan is not a match for either in.

Fair enough, I misunderstood the comparison. I wonder if someone like AK47 with his superior post defense and decent offense (though not superior overall) would be an answer.

What percentage of Kawhi's scoring is done from the post? How often has he had to beat doubles there? How much of an advantage does the modern spread offenses give him?

What percentage of his defense is post defense? How good is he at rim protection? He should have data points available from modern tracking data on those things.

[DorianRo]

At full health and fully motivated I always believed he would be top 10 of all time as a player.. Lazy bastard he is though.. If you gave Leonard MJ/Kobe's brain, he would have been possibly GOAT.. Hes a scary good player when he wants to be.. I wish he would have stayed with Pop and play with Victor now. That would have been awesome

We’ve seen health issues interfere with the careers of so many all time greats; you cant get mad at someone for not being as lucky as mike and kobe

Mike broke his foot or something early in his career. He got physically destroyed by Detroit so he gained a a bunch of weight to counterract it. . Kawahi would have ran away like a scared girl from it. Thats the difference. Someone that wants it all with the talent and someone that wants to coast that has the talent. Its all mindset

[TheGOATRises007]

At full health and fully motivated I always believed he would be top 10 of all time as a player.. Lazy bastard he is though.. If you gave Leonard MJ/Kobe's brain, he would have been possibly GOAT.. Hes a scary good player when he wants to be.. I wish he would have stayed with Pop and play with Victor now. That would have been awesome

We’ve seen health issues interfere with the careers of so many all time greats; you cant get mad at someone for not being as lucky as mike and kobe

If we're being honest, Kawhi's shown a greater commitment to winning than either

[70sFan]

Too many to count to be honest.

???

What 10 non-bigs would you take over Kawhi here?

Depending on whether you include post defense or not and how you define "non-big", you can name anywhere from 10 to 20+ such players.

It's also ridiculous that you truly believe that Dantley was a worse post scorer than Kawhi or that it wouldn't translate today.

[giordunk]

I don't know how to measure this because Livingston in the post was OP but it's like how do you compare someone's later career bread and butter to a portion of a multi-faceted player's game. Livingston probably shoots that turnaround jumper better than Kawhi but Kawhi has many more counters and tools.