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How do you compare the two? Who had the better peak, prime, career?

Does your answer change in case of a Boston title?

Peak and prime is not close. Sheed was closer to the Dirks and Kgs than Al was to him there and i love Al. Al has more allstar appearances but also due to playing in the far inferior conference w/ much less top end talent while Sheed was in the golden age of Pfs in the West too where most were. When Sheed was in the East even as a shell of himself was making allstars in 06 and 08

Career its Sheed too but longevity is prolly on Als side. Its remarkable how good he still is.

Al Horford - every day and night. Better shooter/better passer/better leader/good defender/better rebounder and the most important you always can count on him.

Horford, comfortably, for me.

Al Horford more stable, well-rounded player.

Rasheed more temperamental with a higher potential peak.

I went with Sheed though.

So peak, what years are we talking about?

Rasheed had his best statistical year in 01, highest PER, WS, BPM, 2nd highest VORP, 2nd most minutes, etc.
7.8reb, 2.8ast, 19.2pts with a TS% of .560 v. a league average ts% of .518; 2.1 3pa v. 0.1 for Horford. On the down side, this was the era of the Jailblazers and so intangibles cannot be considered a plus.

Horford had his best statistical year probably in 2011 though it doesn't stand out like Rasheed's 01.
9.3reb, 3.5ast, 15.3pts on .587 ts% v. a league average of .541. Better rebounding can be explained by playing center rather than PF, clearly lesser scoring, but clearly superior passing and presumably intangibles. It's close enough that I would go with Horford unless I needed one of the two to be my primary scorer.

durantbird wrote:How do you compare the two? Who had the better peak, prime, career?

Does your answer change in case of a Boston title?

I said Sheed for peak. I'd say Sheed for prime as well.

Career? Well let me put it this way: From a HOF perspective, I'd have Horford in before Sheed already because of his college career combined with his remarkable low-minute all-star aging.

NBA only? Before this season, I'd still say Sheed.

Will that change with a title this post-season? Honestly, it may. I haven't really been thinking about it in advance.
I can say: It will certainly depend on how Horford looks in the Finals.

penbeast0 wrote:So peak, what years are we talking about?

Rasheed had his best statistical year in 01, highest PER, WS, BPM, 2nd highest VORP, 2nd most minutes, etc.
7.8reb, 2.8ast, 19.2pts with a TS% of .560 v. a league average ts% of .518; 2.1 3pa v. 0.1 for Horford. On the down side, this was the era of the Jailblazers and so intangibles cannot be considered a plus.

Horford had his best statistical year probably in 2011 though it doesn't stand out like Rasheed's 01.
9.3reb, 3.5ast, 15.3pts on .587 ts% v. a league average of .541. Better rebounding can be explained by playing center rather than PF, clearly lesser scoring, but clearly superior passing and presumably intangibles. It's close enough that I would go with Horford unless I needed one of the two to be my primary scorer.

Both of these players are underrated with Horford more so, but these numbers don’t capture their respective defensive impacts. Horford has always been a plus defender and even now when he is old and has lost most of the athleticism he had, he’s a very good team defender. Rasheed at his peak was a next tier defender.

Rasheed Wallace was easily insertable into any lineup and as evidenced by career RAPM numbers, was an impact monster who could add to high end teams as shown by the massive impact that he had on the Detroit Pistons in 2004. Pistons lost the first two games Sheed played with them and then went on to win 20 out of the next 24 with Sheed sitting out a few. These games from 2/23/2004 to 4/12/2004, the Pistons had:

—A MOV of +13.58
—DRtg of 89-90, rDRtg of about -12

They wound up having a playoffs DRtg of -11.84

He was versatile on defense, and he was versatile on offense. Since we have full tracking data, i.e., since 1997, Sheed is one of 7 players who has over 1000 dunks and 1000 threes made. He could shoot, score from the post, space the floor, create mismatches, put the ball on the floor, could finish in traffic off of passes and/or off his own dribble, and generally was a very high IQ player on both sides of the court. On defense, his versatility annd length allowed him to switch between guarding forwards and centers, disrupting opponents' actions. His shot-blocking/shot-altering ability and understanding of defensive rotations made him a reliable rim protector. I think he’d be even more impactful on defense in today’s game.

homecourtloss wrote: Sheed is one of 7 players who has over 1000 dunks and 1000 threes made.

TBF, these didn't really coincide for very long; he was in his late 20s (27 or so) when he started shooting the 3 in any volume, had 2 good seasons, then 2 cruddy ones before getting it more together for the Pistons when he was 31. His first full season in Detroit was his last with more than 38 dunks in a season, and it wasn't until about 2 years before that when he started to hit threes.

I think the trait this highlights for Sheed is more that he was adaptable and evolved over his career. And of course, after leaving Portland, his scoring efficiency dropped off the deep end and he became little more than a spot-up 3pt shooter. Sheed was all kinds of talented, but he rarely put it all together at the same time on offense. Defensively, of course, he was a marvel and he slotted in perfectly with what Detroit needed, TS% be damned. He opened the floor for them in a useful way, and he was extremely effective at both man-on post D and boxing out, which worked well next to Ben Wallace. He was a phenomenal pickup for the Pistons, and I think he was mentally more comfortable and suited to a role with less primacy than he had in Portland.

Temperament aside, Wallace would be perfect in this era.

A true swiss army knife PF

xb3at band1tx wrote:Temperament aside, Wallace would be perfect in this era.

A true swiss army knife PF

He would 100% be a Center unless on Minnesota, where he would play SF

Colbinii wrote:

xb3at band1tx wrote:Temperament aside, Wallace would be perfect in this era.

A true swiss army knife PF

He would 100% be a Center unless on Minnesota, where he would play SF

Of course, then he might then refuse to suit up like he did in Washington where he refused to play center alongside Chris Webber and Juwan Howard, leading to the trade that brought him to Portland. To be fair, Webber refused to play center first leading to an immaturity showdown among two of my least favorite NBA players. No one was doing the "whatever is best for the team" among that duo.

penbeast0 wrote:

Colbinii wrote:

xb3at band1tx wrote:Temperament aside, Wallace would be perfect in this era.

A true swiss army knife PF

He would 100% be a Center unless on Minnesota, where he would play SF

Of course, then he might then refuse to suit up like he did in Washington where he refused to play center alongside Chris Webber and Juwan Howard, leading to the trade that brought him to Portland. To be fair, Webber refused to play center first leading to an immaturity showdown among two of my least favorite NBA players. No one was doing the "whatever is best for the team" among that duo.

Sheed's attitude/mental approach was always his biggest weakness.

Rasheed for peak and prime, while Al for career.

Probably Horford, though both have advantages the other doesn't. I can't see Sheed ever defending Embiid the way Horford did for example; he just doesn't have the stout base or defensive smarts. Al brings more to the locker room too. It'd depend a little what my team needed.

One_and_Done wrote:Probably Horford, though both have advantages the other doesn't. I can't see Sheed ever defending Embiid the way Horford did for example; he just doesn't have the stout base or defensive smarts. Al brings more to the locker room too. It'd depend a little what my team needed.

I don't know about that, Sheed was one of the best Duncan defenders I have seen. He was an excellent post defender.

70sFan wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Probably Horford, though both have advantages the other doesn't. I can't see Sheed ever defending Embiid the way Horford did for example; he just doesn't have the stout base or defensive smarts. Al brings more to the locker room too. It'd depend a little what my team needed.

I don't know about that, Sheed was one of the best Duncan defenders I have seen. He was an excellent post defender.

Duncan was a better player than Embiid, but Embiid was better on offense only. His bulk and speed would have been tough for Sheed, in the same way that Sheed couldn't have guarded Shaq (whereas Duncan could). Sheed's length makes him closer to KG than Duncan in terms of archetypes.

One_and_Done wrote:

70sFan wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Probably Horford, though both have advantages the other doesn't. I can't see Sheed ever defending Embiid the way Horford did for example; he just doesn't have the stout base or defensive smarts. Al brings more to the locker room too. It'd depend a little what my team needed.

I don't know about that, Sheed was one of the best Duncan defenders I have seen. He was an excellent post defender.

Duncan was a better player than Embiid, but Embiid was better on offense only. His bulk and speed would have been tough for Sheed, in the same way that Sheed couldn't have guarded Shaq (whereas Duncan could). Sheed's length makes him closer to KG than Duncan in terms of archetypes.

His base wasn't weak though and he was extremely long, which could bother Embiid's shot. With Joel's style, I wouldn't be worried about him bullying Sheed at all.

The difference between Rasheed's defence and Al's defence is larger than the difference between their offence. So Rasheed.