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Been reading some threads here about Kobe lately, and it got me wondering about the case that his contemporaries could make in certain seasons. While it's obviously debatable, do you think there are any prime Kobe seasons when 5 players were better than him? One possibility that came to mind was 2003, when Duncan, Garnett, Shaq, Tmac, and maybe even Dirk or Kidd could have a strong case over him. Do you think there are seasons like this, or was Kobe consistently top 5?

Depends on ‘prime’ a bit, 99-13, imo:

No debate in: 01, 06, 08-10

Maybe: 02, 03, 04, 07, 11, 12

Out: 99, 00, 05, 13

Yes. Quite a few, which the MVP voting often reflects. He definitely wasn't top 5 in 03.

What people have to remember is Duncan, Shaq, KG and Dirk were all better than him during their respective primes. So that's already 4 guys right there. T-Mac at his peak was better. Lebron was better from 07 onward. Wade, when healthy, was better from 05 onwards. Nash was better from 05. Kidd might have had a year or 2 where you could argue he was better. Dwight in his peak years was more impactful. CP3 was more impactful most years.

All of a sudden you realise the question is are there any years he was top 5? There are, but it's not many.

eminence wrote:Depends on ‘prime’ a bit, 99-13, imo:

No debate in: 01, 06, 08-10

Maybe: 02, 03, 04, 07, 11, 12

Out: 99, 00, 05, 13

Yes, we can argue about whether 99, 00, and 13 are in prime, but theses no doubt that he was in prime in 05 and not having a top 5 season then.

I will say that I’d have to check, but I think I had Kobe Top 5 in 00, but not 11 or 12.


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2000: Shaq, Duncan, Garnett, Mourning, and Malone all better. Would entertain regular season argument for Grant Hill too. Possible postseason argument for Reggie Miller. More positional arguments for Rasheed Wallace and David Robinson.

2001: pretty safe, especially once factoring the postseason

2002: think you could without being unreasonable. Shaq and Duncan are better; after that, feels reasonably comparable with McGrady, Dirk, Garnett… possibly Kidd, although I personally would disagree.

2003: Lean no here, because Duncan, Garnett, and Shaq are all comfortably ahead, and I would take Dirk and McGrady over him too.

2004: bit of a down year so probably no

2005: no

2006/07: probably but do not find it galling if someone excluded him

2008-10: secure

2011: fringe; could be there fairly but also could be fairly excluded if you are higher on players like Durant, Chris Paul, old Garnett, etc.

2012: similar to above, although with a potentially easier argument because of injuries to Howard and more disadvantageous aging among the power forwards

2013: comparable to 2012, although I feel more confident in a (regular season) yes here with the continued decline of Garnett and Dirk.

From 2001-13 I definitely think he was on average a top five player, and the “expected” top five for any given year in that period would include him, Duncan, Garnett, Dirk, and then one of Shaq or Lebron (with 2005/06 being the baton pass season).

Well using bpm(which should be sort of friendly to Kobe) he was top 5 in the rs 4 times(5th all 4 times). Using win shares he was also top 5 4 times. Idk how he would fare with the different rapm's out there but I think he was prob top 5 in some years but I don't think he was that great of a rs player tbh. A lot of the wins he gets vs contemporaries come from him being on 5 title teams and putting up a ton of 60 pt games and getting lots of all def selections that he didn't really deserve. So if you are just going off the rs I don't think he was actually top 5 that often but.. usually we do factor in the playoffs a large amount which elevates his 01, 02 and 08-10 seasons quite a bit(maybe 03 as well). I think he was generally overrated during his career though. Usually at the cost to under appreciate what other players were doing(particularly guards/sfs).

Looking over 99-13, I’d say Kobe was top 5 maybe 3 times; in 2001, 2004, and maybe 2008.

99: Duncan (MVP), Shaq, Zo, K.Malone, and KG were all better. Others like Grant Hill and Kidd have a case too.

00: Shaq (MVP), Duncan, Zo, K.Malone and KG were all better.

01: Shaq (MVP), Duncan, KG, T-Mac, and Kobe scrapes in at 4th or 5th

02: Duncan (MVP), Shaq, KG, T-Mac, Dirk

03: Duncan (MVP), KG, Shaq, T-Mac, Dirk

04: Duncan (MVP), KG, Shaq, Kobe (despite his trash finals), then 5th place is tough. Maybe Peja?

05: Duncan (MVP), Nash, Shaq, KG, Wade/Lebron/Dirk

06: Duncan (MVP), Nash, Wade, Dirk, Lebron

07: Duncan (MVP), Lebron, Nash, Dirk, KG

08: KG (MVP), Lebron, CP3, Dwight, Kobe/Nash/Dirk

09: Lebron (MVP), Wade, Dwight, CP3, Dirk

10: Lebron (MVP), KD, Dwight, Dirk/Wade/Nash

11: Lebron (MVP), Dirk, Dwight, KD, Wade/Rose

12: Lebron (MVP), KD, CP3, Dwight, Dirk/Wade

13: Lebron (MVP), KD, CP3, Harden, Duncan/Curry

If I scored my ballot the MVP share leaders would be something like:
1. Lebron - 35
2. Duncan - 31
3. Shaq - 27
4. KG - 24

[quote="One_and_Done"
04: Duncan (MVP), KG, Shaq, Kobe (despite his trash finals), then 5th place is tough. Maybe Peja?[/quote]
Why is Duncan being placed ahead of Gamett for 04?

OhayoKD wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:04: Duncan (MVP), KG, Shaq, Kobe (despite his trash finals), then 5th place is tough. Maybe Peja?

Why is Duncan being placed ahead of Gamett for 04?

KG got the MVP because Duncan missed some games, and fair enough. I still think Duncan was the better player when he did play, even though he was only 90-95% of what he was in 03 for the last four years of his prime. I'd have KG 2nd, but it's close. You could argue the extra games should mean KG gets it, and I debated that.

One_and_Done wrote:Yes. Quite a few, which the MVP voting often reflects. He definitely wasn't top 5 in 03.

He finished top 5 in MVP voting 11 times lol
including 03

Assuming 2000-’13 is his prime, I would say he was top 5 for 10 seasons and not top 5 for 4 seasons.

Top 5: ’01-’04, ’06-’10, ’12
Not top 5: ’00, ’05, ’11, ’13

CBS7 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Yes. Quite a few, which the MVP voting often reflects. He definitely wasn't top 5 in 03.

He finished top 5 in MVP voting 11 times lol
including 03

We're talking about what should have been the results, not what were.

One_and_Done wrote:

CBS7 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:Yes. Quite a few, which the MVP voting often reflects. He definitely wasn't top 5 in 03.

He finished top 5 in MVP voting 11 times lol
including 03

We're talking about what should have been the results, not what were.

According to who, or what?

CBS7 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

CBS7 wrote:
He finished top 5 in MVP voting 11 times lol
including 03

We're talking about what should have been the results, not what were.

According to who, or what?

Obviously our opinions, but objective evidence backs it up too.

One_and_Done wrote:

CBS7 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:We're talking about what should have been the results, not what were.

According to who, or what?

Obviously our opinions, but objective evidence backs it up too.

Its extremely odd to say something like "MVP voting often reflects who the top five is" only to immediately follow that up with "oh I didn't mean the ACTUAL voting, just how it should have gone in my head".

Was: 01, 04, 06-10
Maybe: 02, 03, 11
Wasn't top 5: 00, 05, 12, 13

CBS7 wrote:

One_and_Done wrote:

CBS7 wrote:
According to who, or what?

Obviously our opinions, but objective evidence backs it up too.

Its extremely odd to say something like "MVP voting often reflects who the top five is" only to immediately follow that up with "oh I didn't mean the ACTUAL voting, just how it should have gone in my head".

It's reflective to a degree, it's not perfect.

From 00-13, only 2005 when he was hurt.

An Unbiased Fan wrote:From 00-13, only 2005 when he was hurt.

Pretty preposterous take. In some of those years he wasn't even close to top 5.

04 and 05? 2 down years in his prime