RealGM

For those here not alive when Dr. J. played:

We know who Dr J was. Top 20 type player. Below the top 15 types like Giannis, above the top 25 guys like Kobe.

Arguably the most incredible slasher the league has ever seen, unbelievable basketball talent.

I think his slashing IQ was possibly the best ever.

Dr Positivity wrote:I think his slashing IQ was possibly the best ever.

For me its not so much iq(though I agree he was good at getting by guys sort of how MJ did) but the way he could retain his balance in the air and hit those shots that weren't lay ups and often used the backboard was just crazy. Sort of like Hawkins where if he's within 6 ft of the basket its almost like a layup for them. Plus his ability to finish with his right hand even when going to his left on top of his insane leaping/finishing near the rim.

Underrated, particularly defensively. Got mvp during Kareem, Moses, Magic and Bird primes.

We know who Dr J was.

Were you alive and watching him play in the 70s and 80s (in particular before he teamed up with Moses Malone)?

I've seen some on RealGM rank SFs like Lebron, Durant, or Kawhi higher than the Doctor. But I don't know anyone who actually saw him play in the 70s and early 80s that believe that any of the 3 were better than Julius. Maybe as good as, but not better.

Kinda like some in the "who's greater Lebron or Kareem" thread. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of those who chose Lebron never saw Kareem play before he played with Magic, or even know who Lew Alcindor was.

kcktiny wrote:

We know who Dr J was.

Were you alive and watching him play in the 70s and 80s (in particular before he teamed up with Moses Malone)?

I've seen some on RealGM rank SFs like Lebron, Durant, or Kawhi higher than the Doctor. But I don't know anyone who actually saw him play in the 70s and early 80s that believe that any of the 3 were better than Julius. Maybe as good as, but not better.

Kinda like some in the "who's greater Lebron or Kareem" thread. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of those who chose Lebron never saw Kareem play before he played with Magic, or even know who Lew Alcindor was.

Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we haven't watched these guys play.

I started watching the NBA in the late 70's, and Dr. J was the first superstar I was aware of (KAJ wasn't the type who kids liked). One of my favorite 10 players ever who I watched

I think Dr. J is "greater" than "better", if that makes sense. He was VERY important to the league pre-MJ, and I have him in my top 15. But, as far as "put him in today's league" and he would suffer in comparison to other former greats

One of the most beautiful players to ever watch play.

Also, now that I'm looking for use of gigantic hands, you just see how it's basically helping Dr. J whenever he pulls off a move that doesn't seem like it should be possible. I think we all tend to expect that when it comes to certain athletic basics that have long been recognized that outliers from half a century ago wouldn't be outliers today, but that big hands factor on someone his size and agility is still something that we don't really see often.

kcktiny wrote:

We know who Dr J was.

Were you alive and watching him play in the 70s and 80s (in particular before he teamed up with Moses Malone)?

I've seen some on RealGM rank SFs like Lebron, Durant, or Kawhi higher than the Doctor. But I don't know anyone who actually saw him play in the 70s and early 80s that believe that any of the 3 were better than Julius. Maybe as good as, but not better.

Kinda like some in the "who's greater Lebron or Kareem" thread. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of those who chose Lebron never saw Kareem play before he played with Magic, or even know who Lew Alcindor was.

I saw him play in both the ABA (a few times) and the NBA. Love him, LeBron was better even relative to era . . . quite possibly even relative to his ABA peers though that's very close.

Doctor MJ wrote:One of the most beautiful players to ever watch play.

Also, now that I'm looking for use of gigantic hands, you just see how it's basically helping Dr. J whenever he pulls off a move that doesn't seem like it should be possible. I think we all tend to expect that when it comes to certain athletic basics that have long been recognized that outliers from half a century ago wouldn't be outliers today, but that big hands factor on someone his size and agility is still something that we don't really see often.

Regarding his giant hands…I saw him in a interview talking about his days at Rucker Park. Someone tried to give him the nickname “The Claw.”

migya wrote:Underrated, particularly defensively. Got mvp during Kareem, Moses, Magic and Bird primes.

Those are all very good players ... his MVP is in 1981
Jabbar has 8 better PER seasons than his 1981 PER (taking one measure that reasonably fairly tacks to mainstream player values)
Bird has 10 better PER seasons than his 1981 PER
Magic plays 37 RS games ...


I'm not going to say they are or aren't prime seasons. That's a subjective thing. If they are though, for the former two they are at the lower end in terms of RS. And Magic plays less than half the games so he's not meaningfully part of the field.

Then too that MVP ... the Pollack +/- data is pretty bad. It estimates
+5.7 per 100 with him on
+12.4 with him off
for
-6.7

and that's mostly driven by defense where ...
Drtg on 101.2
Drtg off 95.0
for a swing of 6.2

Jones being great is likely a significant part of it. Those particular numbers are for one year so wouldn't necessarily completely damn his defense on a larger scale (impact stuff is noisy, +/- without the play-by-play a little more so) ... on the MVP side unless one is suspicious of the Pollack data .. I would guess that to be an unprecedentedly bad in-season impact signal for an MVP.


This doesn't mean he's bad. None of the on-off data is from his ABA days. He's an amazing player to watch ...

One_and_Done wrote:

kcktiny wrote:

We know who Dr J was.

Were you alive and watching him play in the 70s and 80s (in particular before he teamed up with Moses Malone)?

I've seen some on RealGM rank SFs like Lebron, Durant, or Kawhi higher than the Doctor. But I don't know anyone who actually saw him play in the 70s and early 80s that believe that any of the 3 were better than Julius. Maybe as good as, but not better.

Kinda like some in the "who's greater Lebron or Kareem" thread. I'd be willing to bet the vast majority of those who chose Lebron never saw Kareem play before he played with Magic, or even know who Lew Alcindor was.

Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we haven't watched these guys play.

True but you started with a pretty dismissive comment and seemed to project your view onto the rest of us. I would take Dr J and maybe Kobe over Giannis

Dr. J was one of my favorite players to watch. Not saying he was the best (I would take LeBron and Bird over him) but for sheer enjoyment as a fan, the Doctor in his prime was so much fun to watch.

We know who Dr J was.

Well then you don't need to watch the videos. Only those who want to appreciate his greatness would enjoy them anyway. One player I never tire of watching.

I don't give much intellectual weight to any GOAT list that doesn't have Lebron #1, or which puts Russell or Wilt in the top 10.

I find the use of the word intellectual here quite misplaced.

Underrated, particularly defensively.

It's funny/ironic hearing people who never saw him play at the time he did in fact play saying that he wasn't a good defender. Those that saw him play on a regular basis know better.

There are those that don't value his ABA days. And those that don't think much before he won a title with Moses.

But the fact is from 1976-77 to 1981-82, 6 seasons, Philadelphia won the most regular season games among all teams, went to 3 Finals, and they were the 3rd best team defensively during that time, with Erving himself playing 1/7 of their total minutes played.

Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we haven't watched these guys play.

Again - were you actually alive and watching him play in the 70s and 80s? Because if you were you would appreciate how both fans and sportswriters acknowledged his greatness as a player - and as an ambassador for the league.

He was VERY important to the league pre-MJ

He was the face of the league for a good 5-7 years.

I think Dr. J is "greater" than "better"

He was both.

Erving played 5 years in the ABA, and during that time in the ABA ranked:

- 1st in points scored
- 1st in FTM/FTA
- 2nd in rebounds
- 2nd in steals
- 4th in assists
- 4th in blocked shots

He was the dominant player in that league. And...

I saw him play in both the ABA (a few times) and the NBA. Love him, LeBron was better even relative to era

I would debate this. There are a number of all-time greats that never won a title, or just one title. Erving has just one NBA title in four Finals, but also two ABA titles. So he has 3 titles in 6 Finals appearances. Lebron has what, 4 titles in 10 Finals?

Also in his 6 seasons (7677-8182) in the NBA before teaming up with Philly, Erving, among all SFs, ranked:

- 1st in points scored (11189)
- 1st in rebounds (3530)
- 1st in assists (1980)
- 1st in steals (931)
- 1st in blocked shots (738)

Again - that's dominant.

And in the playoffs those 6 seasons among all players he ranked:

- 1st in points scored
- 1st in FTAs
- 4th in rebounds
- 3rd in assists
- 2nd in steals
- 3rd in blocked shots

I get people rating Lebron high due to longevity, but prime-wise I think Erving, Bird, James, Durant, K.Leonard are all very similar.

kcktiny wrote:

Underrated, particularly defensively.

It's funny/ironic hearing people who never saw him play at the time he did in fact play saying that he wasn't a good defender. Those that saw him play on a regular basis know better.

There are those that don't value his ABA days. And those that don't think much before he won a title with Moses.

But the fact is from 1976-77 to 1981-82, 6 seasons, Philadelphia won the most regular season games among all teams, went to 3 Finals, and they were the 3rd best team defensively during that time, with Erving himself playing 1/7 of their total minutes played.

Just because we don't agree with you, doesn't mean we haven't watched these guys play.

Again - were you actually alive and watching him play in the 70s and 80s? Because if you were you would appreciate how both fans and sportswriters acknowledged his greatness as a player - and as an ambassador for the league.

You seem to be very concerned whether people were there "at the time"
You seem to feel the best way for those not so to evaluate him is through highlight packages.

kcktiny wrote:For those here not alive when Dr. J. played: ...

I would argue that, leaving aside enjoyment and aesthetics (perfectly valid reasons for watching, and an area many might choose Erving), highlight packages are a very bad source for player evaluation. The player in focus virtually never misses, rarely errs in general and so a misleading sample is presented.

I would argue that for contemporary opinion there are still sources like SI, or more physically the Hollander handbooks that can be used (I would note in Philly that the latter source which presumably was contributed to by those who "saw him play on a regular basis" is generally less gung ho about his defense than you seem). I would argue for watching games rather than highlights. I would argue watching them recently will give a more accurate memory than having done so 40-50 years ago (conceptually on an all else equal basis - some games are presumably lost to history and only exist in the boxscore and people's memories - it is possible that people saw every Erving game [realistically those with the team] then in a way it presumably isn't now - and nobody here knows how many games other posters saw). I think in evaluating D, the 76ers are in the fortunate position of having Pollack's tracking +/- which gives us a pretty good impression of defense when taken over a large sample (absence of source pbp data being harmful at the margins).

I would argue for watching games rather than highlights.

No argument here.

kcktiny wrote:

I would argue for watching games rather than highlights.

No argument here.

Watch on YouTube

I think you have made a mistake sharing 1976 Sixers game, considering that Julius still played in the ABA during that season.

I think you have made a mistake sharing 1976 Sixers game, considering that Julius still played in the ABA during that season.

Still a great game to watch - Big Mac going for 34 points and 22 rebounds with the series on the line.

Did you know that at that time in NBA history McAdoo was the league's 3rd highest per game scorer at 28.5 pts/g (and had averaged 32.1 pts/g the previous 3 seasons)? Only Chamberlain and Jabbar had scored more per game.

You watch the other games? If so, what is your assessment of the Doctor's defense?